How to Be an Effective Online Activist (Without the Burnout)

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Foreign.

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Welcome to In Behalf of Animals, I'm Nicole Arcello.

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Today I have a very special guest co host. I'd like to

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welcome my guest co host, Jennifer Jones.

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Hi, Jen, thank you so much for joining me today.

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And in behalf of Animals, and welcome. Hi. Thank you

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so much for having me. Thank you. So first,

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I want to acknowledge that it's been a minute

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like a month and 10ish days or

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so that since we've published an episode. And as

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many of you know, I am the executive director of Horse Racing Wrongs and

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Patrick is the founder of Horse Racing Wrongs. And my

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guest co host, Jennifer Jones is a board member for Horse Racing

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Wrongs and also our main

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tweetstorm slayer social media coordinator

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as well. So she can help me

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with my excuse to why we haven't had an episode in

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a while. Because Horse Racing Wrongs is super, super busy

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after the first of the year. So I promise we're

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not pod fading. Jen, have you heard the word pod fade

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before? Like, no. It's like a thing and it's

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scary as heck when you have a podcast because there's a thing called pod

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fade where you just like fade away and. But if someone called me

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a pod fade, I'd be so mad about it, right? Yeah. What the heck.

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So anyway, we're not pod fading. We're going to finish season one,

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which will wrap up around probably around May.

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So anyway, like I said, for horse racing runs,

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a lot of our work, about 80% I'd say. Right. Jen is a. Is behind

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the scenes. So we're working on FOIA requests. They come in fast

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and furious this time of year. There really a lot of sad,

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heartbreaking information that we have to go through. But that's where our data comes

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from, from all the racing commissions. And then there's.

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Along with the beginning of the year is also legislation in multiple

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states. The horse racing industry is trying to get more subsidies and

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more money and things like that. So anyway,

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we are back. We are here. I'm so excited that, Jen,

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you're with me today. We have some great things to talk about. So Patrick

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will be back eventually. Sometimes. Jen, do you know this

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is interesting because I just figured this out the other day.

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There's. Do you. Are you old enough to remember the TV show

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Cheers? Yes. Okay, so you're younger

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than me, so. But anyway, so Ted Danson, who, who I like a

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lot because he's on Curb youb Enthusiasm, he's got a podcast

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with Woody Harrelson, who is vegan, by the way. Woody Harrelson,

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I'm vegan, so I actually looked that up just to make sure he still was.

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So I could like be mad at him if he wasn't, but he still is.

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But they have a podcast I came across and it's where everybody knows your name

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is the name of the podcast. And it's with Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson

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sometimes. So like Woody Harrelson's hardly ever there. So that can be Patrick.

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It's like In Behalf of Animals with Nicole Arcelo, various other

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co hosts, Jennifer Jones, hopefully more than once, and Patrick

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Battuelo sometimes. So maybe that's where we're at right

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now. And it's all good because it's all about advocating for animals.

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So. And I know people want to hear it from Patrick, so we'll definitely have

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him on. He'll do a few solo episodes,

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I think, and definitely in March actually.

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And I haven't told anybody this yet. There's something called

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Podcast a thon where they ask podcasters to

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showcase a non profit. So I'll be showcasing

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horse racing wrongs. And so I'll have Patrick do a

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whole horse racing wrongs episode. It could be our dream episode.

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You know, the ones where we wish that we had these interviews

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sometimes that, you know, when they record, you know, whether we're at a

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protest and they're recording an interview or other recordings and they

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are interview you forever and you get five seconds of time or

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whatever. We can do our own kind of as long as we want.

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Five hour podcast episode about horse racing. So anyway,

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so Jen, we're here. I think our topic today is something

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we talk about a lot, right? So Jen and I talk about animal rights

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like all the time, right? Probably a couple

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times a week, if not every day sometimes, depending on what we're working on.

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And so one of the things you and

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I, we, we've been, we talked about this not too long ago is we're

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in our vegan bubble, right? So we're kind of

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in our vegan animal rights bubble and we forget that there

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are people out there that are

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abusing animals, eating animals, and they talk about it freely, like it's great

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on social media, right? So, you know, they're talking about it in the comments.

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And so one advice that I usually give

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is, you know, there's different kinds of online activism. We have like actions

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to take and things like that. But one of the things

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when I do like a webinar on effective activism

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is I say, like, don't get into fights on social Media.

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So we've talked about this a ton, right? Yeah, so.

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So what are your thoughts about that? Like, what are effective ways?

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You know, and I'll give a great example because I. We had a

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few recently on the horse racing wrongs page where

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people are coming on there saying that, you know, we're lying.

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We don't know what we're talking about. The horses that they have

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are, you know, they. They live on these farms.

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They're never slaughtered. They don't, you know, all. All these lies.

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How do we deal with that? Like, as activists, and I

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know that you probably can come up with a few things too, where people are

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saying, you know, like, we have to eat eggs or we have to drink milk

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or we have to eat meat and, you know, the top of the food chain,

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you know, like all of those things. So,

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yeah, it's definitely difficult because we

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really just want to be the voice for the animals. We see the suffering,

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we see what's happening, and it's completely all unnecessary.

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And it's really difficult to not

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be so overly emotional about it and to try to stay on

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topic and not really get into arguments or

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get into, like, battles with people, because we really

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put our hearts into it. And we really are doing this for the

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animals. We don't get any benefit for ourselves out of

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it. So I think a lot of people don't see that. They think that

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we just want something to be canceled or we want something to just not

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happen anymore for. And they don't really see the reasoning as

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to why we want it to be done, or we want animals

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to have more rights, or we want animals to be seen differently

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than just objects or entertainment or food because

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we don't see them that way. Right. I mean, I became vegan first

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and then an animal rights activist. The more that I was learning

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as I went along because I first didn't want to eat animals,

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and then once I learned more about what goes on in the entertainment

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industry with animals and especially with horse racing,

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circuses, zoos, things like that, you know, it's a.

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It's such a bigger picture than just not eating animals. So it's hard when

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you see it online where people are. Want to just

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argue about it instead of really trying to understand your view

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or your point. But I try to stay on topic the best that I can.

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Now, I used to get into arguments with people. I will admit.

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We can all get triggered, right? Yes. Yeah, definitely. Because you just.

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You. Yeah, just. You want people to understand that

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these animals are suffering. Right. And you said it, it's a lot of emotion.

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Yeah. We have this deep emotion and a lot

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of, you know, there's the bacon jerks, you know, who just like.

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And it's like you bypass them. Right, right. Because those

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are just you, you know, people who are trolling and. But, but there's the

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people that are really saying things are untrue. Right? Yes.

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So how do, how do we, how do we do that in a productive way?

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Because there's a lot of consequences to this and we can get into. Because if

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you're fighting. So you talked about emotion and then

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emotion and passion, we're putting behind that, those, those comments.

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But then it can really drag you down too, right? It could trigger

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you. It could drag you down, it could

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burn you out. It could make you not want to be an activist anymore.

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So I think it's a really hard balancing act and I think I'm very

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choosy. You know, when I, when I do it, I can let a lot go

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now that I couldn't let go over the years.

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But really I, But I like the way you handle these things and I think

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you're really good at it and you have a good strategy and you have this

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outcome you want. Right. So what is the outcome? What's your goal when you're,

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when you answer someone like that in the, in comments on Facebook or

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whatever? Yeah, I try to stay to the facts

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and more of an educational approach now, the more that I've learned,

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because if you go along, a lot of people say the same things, so you

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learn how to respond more in a way of education.

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And a lot of people will say to me, you're not going to change that

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person's mind. And it's always about changing one

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specific person's mind, but putting the information out there

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so the other people can read and be educated. Because there are some people

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that you can change their mind, they're more open minded and they want to learn

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because maybe they just don't know. Because, I mean, I was at a point in

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my life I didn't know, you know, until I started learning. So that's

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really the focus I try to do now is to respond to people

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in a way that's more educational in mind that knowing

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that other people are reading my comments, even if they

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don't like it or share or interact, I know there's

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other people reading it. So that's really what I do. I try to

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focus on, even if somebody's coming at a negative place or

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they're angry, I try to just do that. And then once they start

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getting nasty or mean, I kind of just back away because I'm not

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interested anymore in just arguing. To argue or to

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fight or. You know, of course people will use name calling and they'll

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get off topic. Only when they're losing. That's when they.

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And name calling. Then, you know, you won. Yeah. And sometimes that's just like,

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you know, dust your hands off and walk away. Be like, I won.

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You know. Exactly. That's what I try to do. I try to just not

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engage in that kind of thing. I'll just be like, okay. In my mind,

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I'm like, all right, I've said what I have to say here. I'm educating as

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best as I can. What I know and why I'm. I'm saying what I'm

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saying and why I don't support

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and whatever the topic might be, an animal abuse

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or animal rights. And that's what I try to focus on more,

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is to just stay on that topic. And then it's.

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It's nice that sometimes other people will chime in and be kind of more on

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the animal rights side as well. So other people may comment towards

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that person. And sometimes I'll just be like, okay, I'll let those people in

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now. If they want to fight, that's them. I'm not going to do that anymore.

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Because like you said, burnout is real. You get really burnt out, really run down.

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And it's. It can be very. Because it's like every day we're doing something

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for animals. There's always something happening, and we don't really get a break.

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So I want to try to keep my mental capacity and not get too burned

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out so I can go on to something else for the animals.

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Step away, because it can be very wearing.

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Yeah, I think I. It's. Those are a lot of great points. Burnout is

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real. And I think that we don't. We get caught up in stuff and we

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don't really realize how much we're really

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hurting ourselves. I think sometimes we need to stop and say, how does

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this make me feel? Like a friend of ours stopped by the other day.

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He's been an animal rights activist for a long time,

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and he said. And this is just like regular social media.

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He's. He said, I stay on until I

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start feeling that. That feeling that

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I'm not feeling good because of this. Not that it's to

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make you feel good, but I'm kind of feeling a little bit sick. I'm kind

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of feeling. Yes. Uncomfortable. I'M kind of feeling

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a little depressed, you know, like that kind of a thing. And then just saying,

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okay, I'm done, and just walking away. Yeah, you know, I think that's

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a really good way to be because it

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is, it's really, it is hard. And when you're out there hosting,

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you know, every single day and doing a lot of online activism,

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it's hard to keep going if you're doing a

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lot of that stuff, stuff that drags you down. And I think,

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like, I, I, I try to be, like, very, you know, like, with horse racing,

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wrongs, that's like our baby, you know, like, we built that

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from the ground up. And we're all, our whole team is

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really passionate about that. And we know, you know,

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we know where we're getting the information from. Like, this is coming right to us.

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This is, you know, us, you know, speaking on behalf of another

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organization. It's like, you know, like, where are they? And people

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are saying, you get so mad, you know, so now I

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kind of like. And I, and I've seen you in comments too, like,

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educating, and, you know, you're just like,

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you're, like, on point and you're just educating, like you're saying.

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And other people are getting educated by that. And then

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sometimes, like, when that person starts name calling, everyone's going to know they

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were full of it. Right? So then you can kind

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of, if there's an opening, you know, tag one

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of those other people who are kind of, you know, coming around and

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saying, you know what, Here's a couple links. And, and then, you know, maybe you

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could make those connections too. And, and I think that's,

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it's, it's, I think it takes a long time to develop that craft of

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doing this, you know, where you're not feeling definitely

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dragged down by it. I think it's really hard. We can all get wrapped up.

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I mean, I do too, sometimes, but, but yeah,

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so, so you do our Twitter account too,

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so you'll, you see stuff there. But I think it's, I, I find it's

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mostly on Facebook. What do you think? Yeah, it's usually if I see

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something posted either. It could be anything posted about any

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kind of a, an animal issue that

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a lot of people may find normal, like horse racing,

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hunting, fishing, things like that.

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I just make a point to make an educational post,

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but a lot of people don't, don't respond well. So,

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you know, I just tried to, I just focus on, I'm doing this for the

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animals, and if I could educate one person and get them to not

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participate in whatever that might be. That is totally worth it.

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But Facebook, Yeah, I see a lot on Facebook because I

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also. I follow a lot of animal rights pages and

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a lot of people will post different things, you know, like, take action

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on this or look into this. And sometimes I'll look into it and

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you could just depending on what the comments say. I want to make a.

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A comment or not. Especially if people are being very like.

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Sometimes you're the first one in there. Like I've seen you in like,

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you know, like community groups that are not animal rights, you know,

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where they're posting something, you know, because you live in Maine,

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right? So you'll see some things, you know, in some community

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groups. And you're in there, you know, to be a voice for the animals,

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you know, whether they're like trapping a seal or what

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they call conservation in a lot of ways. And you're in there, you know,

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educating people. And people get really upset really fast.

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They do. But it is nice.

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Some people will like and respond in agreement with

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me. So that helps to motivate me as well, knowing that I'm really not

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alone in this. Just a lot of people don't speak up or say anything.

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So when I am doing it and people like it or comment

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or respond and they're more on like the animal rights side,

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it gives me more motivation as well and makes me see, okay, I'm being

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seen. Other people do agree, but I know that most people just wouldn't

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say anything. So it is nice to see that too, that there are other people

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out there that do agree that animals should have more rights or whatever

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topic that we're talking about shouldn't be done the way it is or shouldn't be

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done at all. So it is nice to see that as well, that there are

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people out there just aren't. They're just not talking about it like we are.

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They might, right? And it's great. And I like that it's a healthy way

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to. To react to those. Those likes

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of support, you know. Cause it's not about how many likes you get. Like a

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lot of people are so wrapped into, which is a whole other episode. I think

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even we'll talk about it today. But so many people are wrapped

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up into how many people see their post or like their post

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and things like that. But it's such a healthy way to look at it and

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be like, look, oh yeah, I have support. I'm going to. Because maybe I'm being

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a voice for all of These people and then the more likes I'm

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getting here, the more support and maybe they will say something and that's

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good. And then, you know, you are, you're, you're reaching that goal of educating

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people in the comments. And you know, and it's, it's hard, you know,

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like there's a lot of times we're all friends with people.

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Well, not all of us, but we have friends that aren't vegan or

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something that might post about something and we have to choose whether

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or not to educate them. You know, like maybe

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they're thinking about, you know, buying a dog or you

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know, from a breeder or they're, you know, complaining about the price of

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eggs and we want to go in there and say, hey, look, I've had a

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couple conversations about eggs lately. You know, you don't need eggs.

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You don't need eggs for any reason. You don't need them to bake. You don't

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need them, you know, and I'm like a pretty big expert on

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not having to bake with eggs, right? Yeah, you sure are. I get right

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in there. I'll be like, just saying and,

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and, and that can be difficult too. And a lot of, you know, and a

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lot of people, they, they still don't understand that, which to me is just mind

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boggling, I guess about it. But it's hard.

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But I think it is a good form of activism.

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Like I said, I will say don't do it. Like, don't get

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into fights. You know, I've done it on our action horse racing runs action group.

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I've done live streams in there and I'm like, don't fight with people. And I

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just say don't. But you know, and you've really found a productive

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way to do it. So it's like, okay, so we can

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do it, but how do we do it without that horrible feeling that

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we're left with or the feeling of having to go back and

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check to see if they responded to your comment. And that's, I think the

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thing I struggle with is I would be like, it'll ruin the rest of my

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day. Like maybe we have like family time or

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whatever. And I'm like, I gotta go back and see, you know, what they

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said. So I've stopped myself from doing that too. I'm like, I,

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like you had said, I said what I said,

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right? And it stands like they can try

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to argue it, but you know, it stands. So they

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will try to argue it. They will. Yes, they will.

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Yes they will. But yeah, I think that's.

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I think that's a really great way, you know, to look at it. And,

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and it's, you know, there's. It's hard to kind of recall, like, different situations

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we've been in, but we've been in a lot of those because it is really

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hard to let it go, especially when someone's saying, you know,

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like this. This week on the horse racing wrongs page, there's been

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a lot of apologists on there trying to say that

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we don't know what we're talking about. And, and, you know,

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they're trying to sway the

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people in the comments. So that's what they're trying to do. They're trying to hijack

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our comments and trying to sway them into believing the lie

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that the horse racing industry has been telling for all these years. Right. We'll see

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farmers come in. We'll see, you know, all these people that are just trying to

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just say, oh, these animals are humanely raised and these

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animals are humanely slaughtered or whatever. And. But. And a lot of people

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believe that, but there's also, you know, groups of

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people who pay people to go on social media to

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do that. So some of these people are paid, I believe, to do

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that. I know the horse racing industry has this nonprofit that's

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trying to change the narrative that we already changed.

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How can they do that? Right. We've already exposed the animal

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cruelty. Over 11,000 horses

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that are dead, killed, died, horrific deaths.

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And they're documented right. From the racing commissions. And there's. And they're,

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you know, trying to start this nonprofit to erase that. But how can they erase

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that? So it takes all of us to just keep, you know,

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being. Being there in the comments and, and to keep going. So. But social

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media is hard, and I. Feel like too, when we see

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that kind of thing, it's. It shows that we are. We are having progress.

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It shows that what we're doing and all the work we're doing is

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being seen and being heard. And like, people in

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the industry will be threatened by that

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because it questions. Makes people

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question what they're doing. It makes people see the truth of what's really

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happening. And you can't. They can't question it because everything

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that horse racing rungs puts out is factual. People can look

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it up themselves. So it's not like it's a hidden.

348
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Any kind of hidden information. They could easily look it up themselves. And I

349
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feel like when we get, the more pushback it is

350
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kind of makes me feel. I know,

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anyway, for me Makes me feel like we're doing good because we're being seen,

352
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we're being heard, and the animals are not

353
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suffering and dying in silence that people are.

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People really are hearing it. So when they're pushing back at us,

355
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it's because we're threatening their pockets. Pretty much.

356
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Right? Yeah. They're scrambling because they know, like, it's. The truth is out

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and they have to defend it. And I think that's. That's really important. I think

358
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it's funny because they try to call us PETA and all these things because,

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like, PETA is like, you know, pejorative for,

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like. For, like, all animal rights activists, I guess.

361
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And it's like, you know, there was someone

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this week who did that, too. Like, oh, there's Peter people. And I.

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And I always say to them, you know, you're. You're stepping

364
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over the bodies of over 11,000 dead horses to

365
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defend this industry.

366
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So. So what you're, you know, I think. I just. I think right before we

367
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went on, I said this to someone. I linked our death

368
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map and I linked our killed 2024 list that we're still filling in

369
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with the FOIA requests. And he

370
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commented back to other people, but he didn't. So I just,

371
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like, wrote back and said, still waiting, dot, dot, dot. Like,

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defend it, you know, and they can't. And that's usually where. And.

373
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And. Oh, so what do you. What do you think about this, too? Because that's

374
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just popped up because we don't do a lot of. We try not to delete

375
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comments unless people are being really rude.

376
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Because we want to, you know, we want. We want. We want to be

377
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able to get in there, correct people. Right. And educate. Right. So we do that

378
00:22:52,382 --> 00:22:55,942
in horse racing, wrongs, but on our own pages. So if

379
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you had people come to your own Facebook page where you're advocating

380
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to animals. I don't know if your page is public. Like, my page is

381
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public. So I've had people say. They come

382
00:23:06,526 --> 00:23:09,862
on and they say crazy stuff, and sometimes I'll just delete them because I'm like,

383
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it's my page. I'm not going to have, you know, some jerk

384
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come tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about. You know, like.

385
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And sometimes I'll respond to it. How do people. How do you deal

386
00:23:20,216 --> 00:23:23,920
with that? Do you have people on your page? Oh, my page is private

387
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,440
now. Because a few years back, I talk about

388
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that. I started a petition. Yeah.

389
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Because there was a volunteer fire department in New York

390
00:23:34,648 --> 00:23:38,432
that was Having a coyote killing contest and

391
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they labeled it as a fundraiser. So I did some research

392
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on it and they were giving out prizes for the biggest

393
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coyote. I don't even know what else there was like prizes for specific

394
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things. So I contacted them and I had

395
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a couple other people I was talking with as well and. And asked them if

396
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they would consider having a more. A family friendly

397
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event because they were also including kids in this contest to go out

398
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and kill these coyotes. They weren't going to do anything with them. They were just

399
00:24:08,826 --> 00:24:13,164
disposed. They were killing them and disposing of them. It was purely contest.

400
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So they couldn't really argue that they were doing it ethically or they were doing

401
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,096
it for the population. They had no argument. Yeah. So I started a petition because

402
00:24:21,168 --> 00:24:25,096
they didn't respond to me when I contacted them. I even told them

403
00:24:25,248 --> 00:24:28,408
I had people that were willing to help them put on a. A more family

404
00:24:28,464 --> 00:24:31,608
friendly fundraiser that didn't include animals.

405
00:24:31,784 --> 00:24:34,420
So you know, they didn't respond. So I started a.

406
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I started a petition. This is one. One woman

407
00:24:38,912 --> 00:24:42,624
putting. Doing this. And I didn't know

408
00:24:42,632 --> 00:24:45,792
what I was doing. I had never done this before. I just felt the

409
00:24:45,816 --> 00:24:49,696
need to do something. This was a volunteer fire department, you know.

410
00:24:49,768 --> 00:24:53,520
So I made. I looked up all the information of

411
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,008
the mayor and anybody else who is like the town clerk's office.

412
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All these. Anybody that I could find that would be a good contact. I put

413
00:25:00,632 --> 00:25:04,080
it in the petition and I just shared it everywhere on

414
00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:07,552
every page I could possibly share it and just like get people involved to

415
00:25:07,576 --> 00:25:11,194
sign this petition to also contact the mayor, contact like the

416
00:25:11,202 --> 00:25:14,650
city council, contact their senators. And a lot of people

417
00:25:14,690 --> 00:25:18,070
in that area got involved and it actually made their local news.

418
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And people were very upset that the fact that a volunteer fire department

419
00:25:22,146 --> 00:25:25,450
was bringing on this pretty much

420
00:25:25,570 --> 00:25:28,778
slaughter of coyotes just to get

421
00:25:28,834 --> 00:25:33,194
prizes just for trophies, just for money. And they're including children,

422
00:25:33,362 --> 00:25:37,058
teaching children how. To kill and not care about animals and.

423
00:25:37,234 --> 00:25:40,754
Awful. Awful. Yeah. So my petition, I. I don't even

424
00:25:40,762 --> 00:25:43,938
remember now. I think I got like 25000 signatures. Yeah,

425
00:25:44,034 --> 00:25:47,234
we're calling. People were writing letters. It was like

426
00:25:47,242 --> 00:25:50,546
a lot of people really got involved because a lot of people just were.

427
00:25:50,618 --> 00:25:54,386
Started with one woman. You just created the spark.

428
00:25:54,498 --> 00:25:57,906
And this is, this is. This is a really good story for everybody.

429
00:25:57,938 --> 00:26:00,210
I wanted to get to this today and I'm glad it just kind of came

430
00:26:00,250 --> 00:26:03,762
up like naturally, but go ahead. And I really. I just didn't know

431
00:26:03,786 --> 00:26:07,114
what I was doing. I just. Every day I worked on it you did.

432
00:26:07,242 --> 00:26:10,602
I contacted everybody I could. I just. I don't. I mean,

433
00:26:10,626 --> 00:26:13,786
I just went for it and I just do what I could. And the mayor

434
00:26:13,818 --> 00:26:16,190
ended up shutting down the contest.

435
00:26:16,850 --> 00:26:20,938
She was very upset about the backlash they were getting

436
00:26:21,074 --> 00:26:24,282
because they were saying this should not be done in our community and it

437
00:26:24,306 --> 00:26:27,434
shouldn't be done. Like, it's, you know, it's a volunteer fire department. It's not like

438
00:26:27,442 --> 00:26:30,378
a gun and rod club or something like that. This is, you know,

439
00:26:30,434 --> 00:26:34,630
volunteer fire department. We're supposed to be people who are heroes in the community,

440
00:26:34,930 --> 00:26:38,312
role models for children, you know, and they made

441
00:26:38,336 --> 00:26:41,560
them look really bad. They're not

442
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,368
happy. So a lot of hunters, a lot of people were mess. Because my Facebook

443
00:26:45,424 --> 00:26:48,504
was not private at the time. And, you know, I put my name on the

444
00:26:48,512 --> 00:26:52,296
petition, which I would not recommend doing, and not putting your Facebook name. My regular

445
00:26:52,328 --> 00:26:56,232
name was my Facebook name. And so I

446
00:26:56,256 --> 00:26:59,832
had a lot of backlash. People were threatening me. You know, people went through my

447
00:26:59,856 --> 00:27:03,772
Facebook page and saw that I had animals and threatened to kill my animals and

448
00:27:03,936 --> 00:27:07,636
all these things. So since then, I did make my Facebook private because

449
00:27:07,788 --> 00:27:11,156
I just don't want. I just don't have the bandwidth to deal with that.

450
00:27:11,308 --> 00:27:13,940
Back and back then, I didn't have as thick of a skin as I do

451
00:27:13,980 --> 00:27:17,492
now. Because you're much different now than you

452
00:27:17,516 --> 00:27:20,612
were back then. But I remember the day you called. We'll get back to that.

453
00:27:20,636 --> 00:27:23,972
But I remember the day you called me to tell me that they canceled

454
00:27:24,036 --> 00:27:27,140
and that you had the big victory. And that was. It was awesome.

455
00:27:27,220 --> 00:27:31,126
I was just so happy because, you know, I. I didn't really expect

456
00:27:31,198 --> 00:27:34,262
them to end it. I just was like, I just have to do what I

457
00:27:34,286 --> 00:27:38,342
can do. I just have to try. Because this is really injustice and

458
00:27:38,366 --> 00:27:41,286
this is like just cruelty all around.

459
00:27:41,358 --> 00:27:45,290
Inhumane, cruelty, barbaric. And I use those words in the petition

460
00:27:45,790 --> 00:27:49,430
because you did. Yes, it is true. And now it's.

461
00:27:49,510 --> 00:27:53,238
And now those contests are. The law passed last year, I think.

462
00:27:53,374 --> 00:27:56,758
So the wildlife killing contests are no more. They're illegal

463
00:27:56,774 --> 00:27:59,040
in New York. So. So that's.

464
00:27:59,620 --> 00:28:03,100
But I think I. I really. I think your campaign really,

465
00:28:03,220 --> 00:28:06,508
you know, made people aware of it. You know,

466
00:28:06,564 --> 00:28:10,640
I think. I think there was like some small protests around, like, because I remember.

467
00:28:11,140 --> 00:28:14,556
I don't remember where it was, like out in western

468
00:28:14,588 --> 00:28:17,964
New York a little ways. And there was like a squirrel killing contact

469
00:28:18,052 --> 00:28:22,092
or something that some of my friends protested and things like that. But yeah,

470
00:28:22,236 --> 00:28:25,676
yes, I actually helped with. A petition for that as well. But unfortunately, we Weren't

471
00:28:25,708 --> 00:28:28,540
able to get that to be canceled. But we sick. A lot of people back

472
00:28:28,580 --> 00:28:31,834
down because they, they thought there was going to

473
00:28:31,842 --> 00:28:34,602
be a huge protest and there was going to be a lot of backlash at

474
00:28:34,626 --> 00:28:38,874
that as well. So I know there was people that went to protest that

475
00:28:39,042 --> 00:28:42,714
and I was involved in calling and making letters on that as well.

476
00:28:42,882 --> 00:28:46,570
But it is, It's. It's about education because a lot of people just don't

477
00:28:46,650 --> 00:28:50,330
know what's happening. They. They think that

478
00:28:50,370 --> 00:28:54,010
people really are trying to control the population of coyotes, but in fact,

479
00:28:54,050 --> 00:28:58,084
they're not because coyotes have become able

480
00:28:58,172 --> 00:29:01,924
to be more of a solitary. They don't have to be pack anymore with.

481
00:29:02,012 --> 00:29:05,560
Because of the amount of animals that are being killed.

482
00:29:05,980 --> 00:29:09,172
So people aren't really helping in the population control if that's what

483
00:29:09,196 --> 00:29:13,332
their goal is anyways. It's just barbaric. And if we don't step in

484
00:29:13,436 --> 00:29:16,724
as, as animal advocates, these things are just going to continue.

485
00:29:16,812 --> 00:29:19,876
Right. So now there's. Now it's. It's banned

486
00:29:19,908 --> 00:29:23,076
in New York state, so you can't do that here. It's. There's. I know there's

487
00:29:23,108 --> 00:29:26,540
bills in some other states, so that's awesome. And. But if

488
00:29:26,580 --> 00:29:30,028
we stay silent, what's going to happen? These things will just continue

489
00:29:30,084 --> 00:29:33,244
and continue and continue. So stay silent.

490
00:29:33,292 --> 00:29:37,132
Definitely not. We have to do what we can. Even if you

491
00:29:37,156 --> 00:29:40,764
get drained from it, you just have to do what you

492
00:29:40,772 --> 00:29:43,516
can do. You just really have to do what you can do and try.

493
00:29:43,588 --> 00:29:46,796
And they're not all going to be victories. And we have to realize

494
00:29:46,828 --> 00:29:49,868
that there are a lot of, you know, there's a lot of sadness. I,

495
00:29:49,924 --> 00:29:53,500
I don't know how many times I cried and just like broke down doing that

496
00:29:53,540 --> 00:29:56,912
work because it's just. You see a lot. Like, I saw a lot

497
00:29:56,936 --> 00:30:00,512
of pictures, you know, of these hunters

498
00:30:00,576 --> 00:30:04,048
holding dead coyotes. They would send me pictures.

499
00:30:04,224 --> 00:30:07,744
You know, I got a lot of messages on Facebook, a lot

500
00:30:07,752 --> 00:30:11,600
of comments on my posts that were really, really cruel.

501
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,552
And I didn't respond to them because I just didn't want to

502
00:30:15,576 --> 00:30:18,720
fuel their fire. I didn't want them to think that they were getting to me.

503
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,298
Yeah, it's because it was just. And I think. I think since then too,

504
00:30:22,354 --> 00:30:26,474
on Facebook, I just want to say that there's like a filter now

505
00:30:26,562 --> 00:30:29,270
for people. Like, you're not friends with that message. You.

506
00:30:29,570 --> 00:30:33,562
So there's like message requests, I think it's called, or something like that.

507
00:30:33,666 --> 00:30:37,178
So you don't get as many. But. But I think, I think

508
00:30:37,314 --> 00:30:40,826
you've definitely come a long way since then. Like you said, you know, you definitely

509
00:30:40,858 --> 00:30:44,618
have a thicker skin and, and I think that like we always

510
00:30:44,674 --> 00:30:47,982
use, we always use our real names and we always encourage people to

511
00:30:48,006 --> 00:30:51,742
use their real names everywhere. You know, whether they're commenting on our website or

512
00:30:51,766 --> 00:30:56,014
doing whatever. Just because you'll see a lot of the, the apologists

513
00:30:56,062 --> 00:30:59,566
not use the real names. You know, like they'll, they'll do all these aliases

514
00:30:59,598 --> 00:31:02,670
and things like that. But, but yeah, I think that,

515
00:31:02,790 --> 00:31:05,966
you know, I think that it's a, that it can be an issue.

516
00:31:06,038 --> 00:31:09,662
You know, we get some nasty emails and, and things like

517
00:31:09,686 --> 00:31:13,566
that too. And they used to bother me a lot more. We just file

518
00:31:13,598 --> 00:31:17,650
them, we take everything seriously. But I don't think that happens to the average,

519
00:31:18,150 --> 00:31:21,838
the average activist and you know, people, people. You're going to get them

520
00:31:21,894 --> 00:31:24,130
bacon people. That's basically, that's.

521
00:31:26,790 --> 00:31:31,134
But yeah, but I think that, I think there's more in place as

522
00:31:31,222 --> 00:31:34,702
far as filters on social media now. You know, like I,

523
00:31:34,806 --> 00:31:38,270
I get a lot of filtered messages and I

524
00:31:38,310 --> 00:31:42,012
just like, you know, I don't even open them, I just delete them.

525
00:31:42,116 --> 00:31:45,356
Yeah. And that's about it. So you don't get as much. But you did shake

526
00:31:45,388 --> 00:31:48,828
things up and people, people got really, really upset about it. But,

527
00:31:48,964 --> 00:31:52,604
but I'm glad you told it was canceled. That was, that was the goal.

528
00:31:52,652 --> 00:31:56,332
And, and that helped motivate me to, to, to push forward and to do

529
00:31:56,356 --> 00:31:59,564
more. Yeah, you do have the victory and

530
00:31:59,652 --> 00:32:03,436
they're very, you know, very few and far in between victories.

531
00:32:03,628 --> 00:32:07,266
But when you have them, you really, it helps

532
00:32:07,298 --> 00:32:10,546
push you forward. It helps you. It's very educational.

533
00:32:10,578 --> 00:32:13,442
You learn along the way. Like I learned a lot doing that because I had

534
00:32:13,466 --> 00:32:16,690
no idea what I was doing and I just kind of did whatever I could.

535
00:32:16,730 --> 00:32:20,082
I did my research and it's just really about when

536
00:32:20,106 --> 00:32:24,082
you have these victories you really have to like acknowledge

537
00:32:24,146 --> 00:32:27,762
them and. Oh yeah, embrace them. You did good.

538
00:32:27,946 --> 00:32:31,154
Because you don't get them off time. But when you do, it's really,

539
00:32:31,242 --> 00:32:34,546
it really helps see the purpose.

540
00:32:34,738 --> 00:32:38,514
Being an Amorites activist. Yeah. And I, and I think that

541
00:32:38,602 --> 00:32:42,882
you know, day to day advocacy,

542
00:32:43,026 --> 00:32:46,242
I think that we need to acknowledge because like

543
00:32:46,266 --> 00:32:49,682
you said there, the victories are few and far between.

544
00:32:49,866 --> 00:32:53,586
So we're seeing victories all the time. I think we should acknowledge

545
00:32:53,618 --> 00:32:57,314
and embrace some of those, even the ones we weren't a part of. But I

546
00:32:57,322 --> 00:33:00,646
think that this is why it's so important to take action when you can.

547
00:33:00,778 --> 00:33:04,206
You know, like we put actions out for horse racing wrongs

548
00:33:04,238 --> 00:33:07,742
like Revolution Philadelphia does. A lot of other groups do. And it's like,

549
00:33:07,766 --> 00:33:11,422
take that action call that, you know, we talked about in

550
00:33:11,446 --> 00:33:14,750
a previous episode, call that designer and say,

551
00:33:14,790 --> 00:33:17,918
go for free. Because when they do go for free,

552
00:33:18,054 --> 00:33:21,502
you. You did that. And I think you should celebrate the victory whether you did

553
00:33:21,526 --> 00:33:25,070
it or not. But it feels so much better when, you know, you made that

554
00:33:25,110 --> 00:33:28,208
phone call and you can say, like, I did that,

555
00:33:28,334 --> 00:33:31,772
you know, and I was a voice for the animals. Like, I just been

556
00:33:31,796 --> 00:33:35,180
speaking about petitions. Like, I was just having a discussion with somebody today

557
00:33:35,220 --> 00:33:38,300
about petitions. And not all petitions. And this. Now,

558
00:33:38,340 --> 00:33:41,564
what year was. Did you do that? That was. That's in 2019.

559
00:33:41,652 --> 00:33:45,100
It was the end of COVID Okay.

560
00:33:45,180 --> 00:33:48,236
So I was. I knew it was a long time ago. So back then,

561
00:33:48,308 --> 00:33:51,740
I think petitions did really well with small things.

562
00:33:51,860 --> 00:33:54,940
But now everything's so saturated with

563
00:33:54,980 --> 00:33:58,830
petitions that petitions are more like a marketing to bring

564
00:33:58,870 --> 00:34:02,942
awareness to your cause. But you're not always going to get, like, a victory

565
00:34:03,006 --> 00:34:06,142
from the petition alone. The petition alone is

566
00:34:06,166 --> 00:34:09,534
not enough anymore. And I was just having this discussion with somebody

567
00:34:09,662 --> 00:34:12,910
and a lot of people because, look, since you did that,

568
00:34:12,950 --> 00:34:16,574
right? So I love talking about the COVID years, you know,

569
00:34:16,662 --> 00:34:20,130
the quarantine, and then just all of us being isolated.

570
00:34:20,470 --> 00:34:23,899
A lot of people turned away from activism. Whole other episode.

571
00:34:23,979 --> 00:34:27,611
I know. And I gotta let it go. Cause it's 2025, so we're trying

572
00:34:27,635 --> 00:34:31,291
to motivate people. But, you know, a lot of people stopped being active.

573
00:34:31,355 --> 00:34:35,211
A lot of people stopped. There was a lot of fighting about

574
00:34:35,395 --> 00:34:39,319
politics and vaccines and a lot of splintering in the community

575
00:34:40,019 --> 00:34:43,083
and a lot of people turning away from things. And I think a lot of

576
00:34:43,091 --> 00:34:46,491
people. Because it became all online activism,

577
00:34:46,555 --> 00:34:49,728
right? Because there weren't a lot of protests. There weren't a lot of other things.

578
00:34:49,784 --> 00:34:52,912
There wasn't a lot of contacting legislators. I think

579
00:34:52,936 --> 00:34:56,832
a lot of people just want to sign that petition. That one click on

580
00:34:56,856 --> 00:35:00,352
change.org and then they're like, okay. And they just, like,

581
00:35:00,376 --> 00:35:04,096
go on with their day. Like, I did something. But signing a petition isn't enough.

582
00:35:04,248 --> 00:35:08,080
You know, now because it's. There's so many petitions. There's petitions for

583
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,216
everything. Some causes, like, one cause

584
00:35:11,248 --> 00:35:15,184
will have 10 petitions. You know, like, I've seen duplicates of our petitions

585
00:35:15,232 --> 00:35:19,216
but before, and it's like, all right, these aren't going to really change anything

586
00:35:19,248 --> 00:35:22,144
because you need people to make the phone calls. But you did that at the

587
00:35:22,152 --> 00:35:26,096
same time. So you had the petition and then you were still making phone calls

588
00:35:26,128 --> 00:35:29,456
and putting those phone numbers out there and asking people to take action. So it's

589
00:35:29,488 --> 00:35:32,576
so much more than that. And I think that's, you know,

590
00:35:32,648 --> 00:35:36,656
so that's the one activism petitions

591
00:35:36,768 --> 00:35:40,240
now in 2025 that I wish people would

592
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,762
stop doing, where people would at least stop thinking that that's the

593
00:35:43,786 --> 00:35:47,106
only thing that they should do. You know what I mean? Because it's just,

594
00:35:47,178 --> 00:35:51,042
it's not enough right now. You know, we need to be out there doing so

595
00:35:51,066 --> 00:35:55,410
many things. Like, like you're, you're, you do tweet storms

596
00:35:55,570 --> 00:35:58,802
and we're out there, like, I don't even know how many tweets you do when

597
00:35:58,826 --> 00:36:02,018
we do a tweet storm. You did hundreds.

598
00:36:02,114 --> 00:36:05,842
Hundreds of tweets. Yes. In like a 24 hour period for

599
00:36:05,866 --> 00:36:08,790
like two hours storm. And it's just about,

600
00:36:08,830 --> 00:36:12,454
like getting, getting it out there. And then Facebook groups, you shared

601
00:36:12,502 --> 00:36:16,198
those. You know, every action we have anyway, you share Facebook groups

602
00:36:16,214 --> 00:36:19,734
and just get people, you know, motivated. So. And that's what

603
00:36:19,742 --> 00:36:23,110
the podcast is about, right, Is getting people like, motivated to be.

604
00:36:23,150 --> 00:36:26,790
And hearing these stories and hearing your story about how

605
00:36:26,830 --> 00:36:30,678
you just saw something wrong and was like, I gotta fix it.

606
00:36:30,814 --> 00:36:34,414
And you dealt with and you, you handled everything really well. You handled

607
00:36:34,462 --> 00:36:38,398
all the threats and, you know, all these things and you kept going. And that's

608
00:36:38,414 --> 00:36:41,998
the most important part, you know, like, you kept going,

609
00:36:42,054 --> 00:36:45,422
you didn't stop. And that's important to just keep

610
00:36:45,526 --> 00:36:48,718
your head down and just keep doing it for the animals, you know, and that's

611
00:36:48,734 --> 00:36:52,238
it. And that's the thing that we want to motivate people to do every

612
00:36:52,294 --> 00:36:55,422
day and, and not get burned out. So a lot, A lot of things are

613
00:36:55,446 --> 00:36:58,926
different since then, which is good. Like these make message

614
00:36:58,958 --> 00:37:02,228
requests so you can filter out all those crazy people. And there's

615
00:37:02,244 --> 00:37:05,700
nothing wrong with a private page and you can make your posts public.

616
00:37:05,820 --> 00:37:09,412
Yeah. You know, share some. Yeah. So I love that and

617
00:37:09,436 --> 00:37:12,052
thank you for talking about that because I wanted to talk. It was in my

618
00:37:12,076 --> 00:37:15,364
notes to ask you to talk about that because I couldn't remember what year it

619
00:37:15,372 --> 00:37:18,804
was. But it's got to feel good too, that there's no more

620
00:37:18,812 --> 00:37:22,532
killing contests, you know? Yes. So there's one less thing in this

621
00:37:22,556 --> 00:37:26,356
state anyway, you know, we can move on to the next. And I think that's.

622
00:37:26,468 --> 00:37:28,880
But yeah, embracing those victories and,

623
00:37:29,710 --> 00:37:33,478
you know, giving yourself credit, you know, like, I did

624
00:37:33,534 --> 00:37:37,254
really good work today. Sometimes I feel like I don't do enough for animals,

625
00:37:37,302 --> 00:37:40,582
you know, I'll Even at the end of the day, be like, I don't think

626
00:37:40,606 --> 00:37:43,302
I did enough today. And I worked a 10 hour day, you know, and I

627
00:37:43,326 --> 00:37:47,222
was doing. And I say to myself, no, I have to give myself credit for

628
00:37:47,246 --> 00:37:51,238
what I did today, so I have energy to go on tomorrow. So I'm

629
00:37:51,254 --> 00:37:54,092
not doing this all day, all night.

630
00:37:54,246 --> 00:37:58,224
And so what do you think about having controls on yourself

631
00:37:58,272 --> 00:38:00,960
with social media at different times of the day? Like,

632
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,832
like not after a certain time of night, like not

633
00:38:04,936 --> 00:38:08,128
going on social media or anything like that. Do you do anything like that?

634
00:38:08,264 --> 00:38:11,420
Definitely a must. Sometimes it can be hard,

635
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,488
especially if you're in the process of trying to.

636
00:38:15,624 --> 00:38:19,200
Like if you're on a specific topic or you see some

637
00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:22,654
injustice and you're involved in it, it's, it's. Your mind is

638
00:38:22,742 --> 00:38:26,062
always like, well, should I say this or should I say that or

639
00:38:26,086 --> 00:38:29,150
should I do this? What if I don't say enough, you know? And you,

640
00:38:29,190 --> 00:38:32,318
it gets very wearing because you, in, in the big picture,

641
00:38:32,334 --> 00:38:35,342
you're just doing it for the animals. You're the voice for the animals. Like you

642
00:38:35,366 --> 00:38:38,174
said, you feel like you're not doing enough. And I feel like that all the

643
00:38:38,182 --> 00:38:41,214
time too. Even if we're doing stuff all the time.

644
00:38:41,382 --> 00:38:45,022
And I think it's hard when you just, you don't see the

645
00:38:45,046 --> 00:38:48,664
outcome you want. Yeah, you just get like worn down.

646
00:38:48,752 --> 00:38:52,344
But the big picture is you are doing it for the animals.

647
00:38:52,472 --> 00:38:56,408
The animals are. They don't have the voice to speak out in

648
00:38:56,544 --> 00:38:59,512
when they're suffering and we're seeing their suffering.

649
00:38:59,656 --> 00:39:03,528
So really I feel like it is my calling to

650
00:39:03,664 --> 00:39:06,984
whenever I see any kind of injustice, even sometimes I might just drop

651
00:39:07,032 --> 00:39:10,920
something, comment in something and leave it and not look back because I'll just

652
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,104
say what I have to say and leave it there. But then there's some instances

653
00:39:14,152 --> 00:39:17,654
where I feel like I have to continuously comment and respond. So I

654
00:39:17,662 --> 00:39:21,174
mean, each scenario is different depending on whatever topic.

655
00:39:21,222 --> 00:39:24,690
And unfortunately there's a lot of topics in

656
00:39:25,470 --> 00:39:29,174
dealing with animal rights, a lot of injustice, a lot of barbaric,

657
00:39:29,222 --> 00:39:33,126
cruel, sad things that are considered normal and legal.

658
00:39:33,238 --> 00:39:36,454
And everybody just thinks it's okay,

659
00:39:36,582 --> 00:39:40,102
but it's really about educating and letting people know that it's not okay. This is

660
00:39:40,126 --> 00:39:43,190
what's really happening. And it's not just

661
00:39:43,230 --> 00:39:46,166
the norm that everybody should just turn a blind eye to.

662
00:39:46,318 --> 00:39:49,590
Yeah, it is difficult. It definitely is difficult because I feel like I just always,

663
00:39:49,710 --> 00:39:52,902
whenever I see anything, I just want to comment or I want to educate or

664
00:39:52,926 --> 00:39:56,566
I want to. And it's Hard not to get upset because it can be upsetting,

665
00:39:56,598 --> 00:40:00,934
but I notice myself if I start to get anxious or angry

666
00:40:01,062 --> 00:40:05,110
or overwhelmed. I really try hard more now to step away

667
00:40:05,230 --> 00:40:08,742
because I don't want it to ruin my day. Yeah,

668
00:40:08,886 --> 00:40:12,370
it's essential because we need to regroup instead of

669
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,920
being critical of myself, you know, like, I did really

670
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,168
good work today, and I should move on and,

671
00:40:19,304 --> 00:40:21,872
you know, take my mind off it for a little while, you know, like,

672
00:40:21,896 --> 00:40:24,816
I know people who do this 247 every single day,

673
00:40:24,968 --> 00:40:28,320
and I'll be like, I should do that. And I'm like, I can't do

674
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,616
that, because for me, that doesn't work. You know, I mean, I,

675
00:40:31,688 --> 00:40:34,620
I do it. I do a lot. Every day. Every day.

676
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,296
I don't, I don't think. And you do, too. And, you know, I think everybody

677
00:40:39,328 --> 00:40:42,678
does and everyone we have on, on the show and.

678
00:40:42,734 --> 00:40:45,718
But I think all of us have. And I always ask everybody,

679
00:40:45,894 --> 00:40:49,462
you know, what do you do to avoid burnout? So, And I don't really talk

680
00:40:49,486 --> 00:40:52,854
about what I do too much, but so, like, so I

681
00:40:52,862 --> 00:40:56,342
know there's, I know that you do some things to kind

682
00:40:56,366 --> 00:41:00,262
of regroup, and I could tell, I could tell everyone what they are, but can

683
00:41:00,286 --> 00:41:03,718
you tell people what you do? Because I know what you do. You probably don't

684
00:41:03,734 --> 00:41:06,326
even know what I'm talking about. What do you, what do you do to avoid

685
00:41:06,358 --> 00:41:09,370
burnout? Come on. And you go to. We go to the beach.

686
00:41:09,530 --> 00:41:10,270
Yes,

687
00:41:13,730 --> 00:41:17,194
on the beach. Because I feel like even though I'm not on the computer talking

688
00:41:17,242 --> 00:41:20,778
to people, I'm doing something ocean and I pick up garbage.

689
00:41:20,954 --> 00:41:24,090
You know, I try to do that. I try to remind myself that it is

690
00:41:24,130 --> 00:41:27,770
okay to take a couple days off and not respond and not

691
00:41:27,810 --> 00:41:30,710
read things on social media because it's very,

692
00:41:31,570 --> 00:41:34,672
very. So I try to just tell myself,

693
00:41:34,736 --> 00:41:37,920
do not look at anything today, because today, like, if I just don't feel good

694
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,584
that day, I know that I'll be triggered more or I'll get set easier

695
00:41:41,632 --> 00:41:44,928
than if another day feel better and I might be able to brush things

696
00:41:44,984 --> 00:41:48,400
off more. So I just stay on topic and I,

697
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,032
That's a learning process, definitely, because when I first started, I did not

698
00:41:52,056 --> 00:41:55,280
know what to do. I did not know how to manage any of this because

699
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,784
I, I, I would let it over be overwhelming to me,

700
00:41:58,872 --> 00:42:02,878
get consumed, and I would be just. I would just dwell about

701
00:42:02,934 --> 00:42:06,718
everything and I'd be so upset. And, you know,

702
00:42:06,854 --> 00:42:09,870
it's hard not to do that, but I try to do that. I try to

703
00:42:09,910 --> 00:42:13,250
you know, take care of my, my own animals,

704
00:42:14,550 --> 00:42:17,822
make sure that they're taking care of my babies. And you know,

705
00:42:17,846 --> 00:42:21,342
it's, it's just, it can be. And you work, you work from home like I

706
00:42:21,366 --> 00:42:24,622
do. So we're like in our, we're in our

707
00:42:24,806 --> 00:42:28,622
animal rights bubble. We're isolated to an extent. We live

708
00:42:28,646 --> 00:42:32,112
with people, but, you know, like, for a majority of the day we're

709
00:42:32,176 --> 00:42:35,552
like isolated in a lot of ways. So that's, you know, the thing.

710
00:42:35,576 --> 00:42:38,640
And I know that there's a lot of people out there that have that same,

711
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,352
you know, isolation where, you know, they have their

712
00:42:42,376 --> 00:42:46,112
social media is their outlet for like minded people. But like

713
00:42:46,136 --> 00:42:49,712
Patrick, this is like such a great example. He was using my computer

714
00:42:49,856 --> 00:42:53,424
the other day and he said, like, my Facebook

715
00:42:53,512 --> 00:42:55,824
is like, I have all the social media at the top. So I could just

716
00:42:55,832 --> 00:43:00,038
like one click, you know, a tab on my toolbar and he goes,

717
00:43:00,214 --> 00:43:03,510
he's gone on social media. So he said, I clicked on

718
00:43:03,550 --> 00:43:08,326
Facebook and I scrolled for like half a second and

719
00:43:08,478 --> 00:43:11,910
oh my God, the horrible stuff that was on there. And I said,

720
00:43:11,950 --> 00:43:16,134
I know, because I don't scroll because it's all the cruelty

721
00:43:16,182 --> 00:43:19,526
videos. There's a lot. And when you're

722
00:43:19,558 --> 00:43:22,550
like us, of course you're, you know, we're tapped into.

723
00:43:22,670 --> 00:43:26,146
We follow other people that share the. So you follow no

724
00:43:26,218 --> 00:43:29,554
animal rights organization. Your friends do. Right. So they're sharing

725
00:43:29,602 --> 00:43:32,850
all this, which they should, because this is effective, you know,

726
00:43:32,890 --> 00:43:36,034
online activism. Right to share and. But,

727
00:43:36,122 --> 00:43:39,234
you know, we're seeing a lot of that. So he was like, I don't know

728
00:43:39,242 --> 00:43:42,194
how you do it. And I said, well, I don't scroll and I really don't.

729
00:43:42,242 --> 00:43:45,670
I said, the only time I do a little bit of scrolling is like Instagram.

730
00:43:46,170 --> 00:43:49,154
So I like to look at food stuff because I'm a big foodie.

731
00:43:49,202 --> 00:43:52,686
I'm a foodie and animal rights activist, which it doesn't always go together,

732
00:43:52,838 --> 00:43:55,678
but yeah, so I don't scroll a lot.

733
00:43:55,734 --> 00:43:58,878
And so I think that we have to take breaks from that.

734
00:43:59,014 --> 00:44:03,022
And I know that, you know, it is a way for us

735
00:44:03,046 --> 00:44:06,542
to be connected to each other, you know, and maybe if people work in

736
00:44:06,566 --> 00:44:09,918
a place where, you know, they're working with a lot of

737
00:44:09,974 --> 00:44:13,662
people, they're probably, they're the only vegan where they

738
00:44:13,686 --> 00:44:16,814
work. So maybe that's their way to communicate.

739
00:44:16,862 --> 00:44:20,048
But I think it is good to take breaks and to just kind of allow

740
00:44:20,104 --> 00:44:23,440
yourself the break, you know, Like, I like reading novels.

741
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,024
I like sometimes like easy reading romance novels.

742
00:44:27,072 --> 00:44:30,992
I Like, actually there's a few vegan romance written by vegan

743
00:44:31,056 --> 00:44:34,032
romance novels that I. That I have, I'll put on my, on the blog.

744
00:44:34,096 --> 00:44:37,760
So I like, you know, just kind of relaxing, going outside, going for

745
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,296
walks and just being like, you know, getting away from. From it.

746
00:44:41,368 --> 00:44:44,832
And cooking. Cooking is like a huge. Actually I do a lot of thinking when

747
00:44:44,856 --> 00:44:48,356
I cook. So if I have to write something or compose something, I'll be thinking

748
00:44:48,388 --> 00:44:52,564
about that while I'm cooking. And so I love cooking and you know,

749
00:44:52,652 --> 00:44:55,892
so those are my ways to kind of like, you know, get away

750
00:44:55,916 --> 00:44:59,492
from it. But it is important because it's. It can

751
00:44:59,516 --> 00:45:02,692
be really draining. And I think, I think

752
00:45:02,716 --> 00:45:07,188
I wanted to do this podcast because I think so many people turn

753
00:45:07,244 --> 00:45:10,836
away from activism because they don't have maybe these tools we're

754
00:45:10,868 --> 00:45:14,468
talking about or maybe they've tried them and they don't know if they can work.

755
00:45:14,524 --> 00:45:18,180
So maybe if we can tell people, hey, this works or try

756
00:45:18,220 --> 00:45:22,164
this or whatever, you know, to, to help them get through it so

757
00:45:22,172 --> 00:45:25,412
they can really be driven by that passion for animals. Yeah,

758
00:45:25,476 --> 00:45:29,764
self care is definitely a must. Anything that you could find that brings

759
00:45:29,812 --> 00:45:33,348
like joy to you, that makes you feel good,

760
00:45:33,484 --> 00:45:36,740
going for a walk, meditating, doing yoga,

761
00:45:36,820 --> 00:45:39,908
reading, even if you want to watch TV shows, listen to music.

762
00:45:39,964 --> 00:45:43,556
I like dancing, listening to music. That's really one of my favorite

763
00:45:43,588 --> 00:45:47,298
things. Yeah. And just really what, what really

764
00:45:47,354 --> 00:45:50,962
brings you back to like just feeling good, being happy?

765
00:45:51,026 --> 00:45:54,642
Because we really need that. You need that your life to make you

766
00:45:54,666 --> 00:45:58,242
feel good in all aspects. Because in a lot of people, self. Self care

767
00:45:58,266 --> 00:46:01,730
gets pushed aside a lot. A lot of people think they have to go and

768
00:46:01,770 --> 00:46:05,186
be busy and do, do, do. But you really have to come back to stuff

769
00:46:05,218 --> 00:46:08,802
that helps re. Energize you and refreshes you and me and kind

770
00:46:08,826 --> 00:46:12,156
of clears your head so that you could be ready, you know, to push

771
00:46:12,188 --> 00:46:15,932
forward and do more. Yeah, I don't think we have to be martyrs. And that

772
00:46:15,956 --> 00:46:19,212
took me a long time for myself. And I

773
00:46:19,236 --> 00:46:22,460
like to listen. The thing I forgot to mention, I like to listen to

774
00:46:22,500 --> 00:46:25,596
selected shorts and also the Moth Radio Hour.

775
00:46:25,668 --> 00:46:28,732
I like that. And they, they have podcast versions of those.

776
00:46:28,836 --> 00:46:32,076
And I'll go for a walk and listen to like a story. But I think,

777
00:46:32,148 --> 00:46:35,964
you know, we. It is a very depressing thing and I think

778
00:46:36,052 --> 00:46:39,146
we can't do it all the time. And I think for a lot of people

779
00:46:39,218 --> 00:46:42,762
it doesn't really work for me very much. But a lot

780
00:46:42,786 --> 00:46:46,170
of people, I think animal sanctuaries are good to Go to

781
00:46:46,290 --> 00:46:49,770
if you live near them because you can be around the

782
00:46:49,810 --> 00:46:53,226
animal, the happy animals, you know, like for me, I struggle

783
00:46:53,258 --> 00:46:56,666
a little bit with that because I like see cows and I'll start crying and,

784
00:46:56,738 --> 00:46:59,930
you know, wish I could save them all. So it doesn't really work for me.

785
00:46:59,970 --> 00:47:03,322
But I know friends that go to the sanctuary to kind of just be

786
00:47:03,346 --> 00:47:06,656
with the animals and that makes them happy and that fills their bucket

787
00:47:06,688 --> 00:47:09,824
back up. And for me that doesn't really work. I have to kind

788
00:47:09,832 --> 00:47:13,264
of just be like totally away from it and that's okay too,

789
00:47:13,352 --> 00:47:16,672
you know, And I think that we beat ourselves up for

790
00:47:16,696 --> 00:47:20,176
not working enough or, you know, I think just how we are

791
00:47:20,248 --> 00:47:23,280
as Americans. We just think we need to work all the time. We need to,

792
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,104
you know, keep going and we put ourselves last. And I think, I don't,

793
00:47:27,152 --> 00:47:30,608
I think we need to not necessarily put ourselves first

794
00:47:30,664 --> 00:47:33,184
because I think that's kind of weird. But I think we need to put ourselves

795
00:47:33,232 --> 00:47:36,256
on the list. Yes. So every day we're

796
00:47:36,288 --> 00:47:39,552
getting that break, we're taking that break. And so you don't have a lot

797
00:47:39,576 --> 00:47:43,248
of time but, but build that time for yourself, even if it's, you know,

798
00:47:43,304 --> 00:47:47,248
on the weekend and, and take the simple actions. There's a lot of simple actions

799
00:47:47,264 --> 00:47:51,248
you can take and make phone calls and, and, and write emails and,

800
00:47:51,304 --> 00:47:55,376
and all that stuff too. So yes, definitely spend

801
00:47:55,408 --> 00:47:59,740
time in nature, be outside if you can, because that's really great and refreshing and

802
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,816
clear your head too, you know. Yeah. And be educational in those,

803
00:48:03,888 --> 00:48:07,432
in those posts and don't let it burn you out. But if

804
00:48:07,456 --> 00:48:11,032
you try. So just right back to that real quick before,

805
00:48:11,136 --> 00:48:15,176
before we wrap up. If you try to comment and it's

806
00:48:15,208 --> 00:48:18,472
triggering you, then don't do it because that kind of activism isn't for you.

807
00:48:18,576 --> 00:48:21,580
Yes, pick up, write an email to a legislator,

808
00:48:22,240 --> 00:48:25,704
write a letter to the editor. All of those are productive, where you don't have

809
00:48:25,712 --> 00:48:29,146
to interact with people, you know, and some people don't like protesting

810
00:48:29,178 --> 00:48:32,906
because, because of that face to face thing, you know, like, I believe protesting

811
00:48:32,938 --> 00:48:36,266
is really important, but it's not the only way to get things done. There's tons

812
00:48:36,298 --> 00:48:39,034
of ways to get things done. So find your way.

813
00:48:39,202 --> 00:48:42,714
And you know, if you're, listen, if you're listening to this on, on I

814
00:48:42,722 --> 00:48:46,010
think Spotify, you can comment and YouTube, you know,

815
00:48:46,050 --> 00:48:49,898
comment and we'll, you know, comment back to you and we'll answer questions

816
00:48:49,914 --> 00:48:53,652
and things like that because I think it's important to have those dialogues

817
00:48:53,716 --> 00:48:57,252
open with people that Are trying new people that have been in this

818
00:48:57,276 --> 00:49:01,044
for years, people that are new to animal activism, people who

819
00:49:01,052 --> 00:49:03,748
are getting animal activism. Maybe, like,

820
00:49:03,804 --> 00:49:06,980
hopefully we're sparking some passion for people to get back into

821
00:49:07,020 --> 00:49:10,052
it and, you know, and we're here to help.

822
00:49:10,236 --> 00:49:13,812
So, yes, it's good to find people like minded as well.

823
00:49:13,916 --> 00:49:17,620
Find people who share your passion in helping animals.

824
00:49:17,780 --> 00:49:20,952
Share your passion for veganism and you could talk about it. It's really

825
00:49:20,976 --> 00:49:24,472
helped, too, that you don't feel so alone or isolated, because sometimes it can be

826
00:49:24,496 --> 00:49:27,832
isolating because, you know, you get a lot of pushback from people and you feel

827
00:49:27,856 --> 00:49:31,256
kind of like you're the only one speaking up for the animals while everybody else

828
00:49:31,288 --> 00:49:34,920
is, like, arguing with you or pushback. So you find

829
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,648
people with. Who are also animal rights activists,

830
00:49:38,744 --> 00:49:42,216
vegans, who want to be out there for the animals. It's really great

831
00:49:42,368 --> 00:49:45,352
also for your mental health and to feel like, you know, you belong and that

832
00:49:45,376 --> 00:49:48,072
you have other people that are doing the same thing and you have, like,

833
00:49:48,096 --> 00:49:51,334
more support. Yeah, you and I FaceTime each other

834
00:49:51,422 --> 00:49:55,318
occasionally, a couple times a month, so we can talk

835
00:49:55,374 --> 00:49:59,510
about just regular stuff. Like, we try to get together and we visit

836
00:49:59,550 --> 00:50:02,342
each other. Used to live near me so we could see each other more,

837
00:50:02,366 --> 00:50:05,206
but now you're really far away from me. But. So.

838
00:50:05,358 --> 00:50:09,382
But, you know, and get together with people and talk

839
00:50:09,406 --> 00:50:13,494
about other stuff. Like when we get together with, like, our animal rights friends,

840
00:50:13,662 --> 00:50:16,654
we talk about other things, you know, we don't talk about,

841
00:50:16,742 --> 00:50:20,270
you know, like, you were here for. For the Belmont protest last

842
00:50:20,310 --> 00:50:24,590
year, and Jennifer Sully and Bailey Chapman were here and other

843
00:50:24,630 --> 00:50:28,110
people that were local, and we all got together. We're, like, eating food

844
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:31,534
and we're, like, hanging out and we're eating, like, cookies and donuts and, you know,

845
00:50:31,542 --> 00:50:34,974
and all vegan stuff. And. And. But we weren't talking about, like,

846
00:50:35,062 --> 00:50:39,278
oh, my God, I'm so depressed. I'm so sad. All this animal cruelty,

847
00:50:39,374 --> 00:50:42,888
because you can't do that all the time, you know, And I think if your

848
00:50:42,944 --> 00:50:46,680
friends are doing that, if you're finding that

849
00:50:46,720 --> 00:50:50,600
maybe the people that you're with, even your vegan friends

850
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,880
are kind of more negative like that, then try to bring other people in

851
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,112
or try to change the subject and don't talk about it. Like, we don't have,

852
00:50:57,136 --> 00:51:00,904
like, a rule that's like, okay, everyone shut off the animal rights stuff.

853
00:51:01,032 --> 00:51:04,152
But I think we kind of look forward to being together and not

854
00:51:04,176 --> 00:51:07,704
talking about it, you know, whether we were just at a protest the day before

855
00:51:07,792 --> 00:51:10,936
or not. But I think it's good to not talk about it all the time

856
00:51:11,008 --> 00:51:14,504
and talk about other things and be okay with that. Give yourself

857
00:51:14,552 --> 00:51:18,152
permission to do it, because there's other things going on

858
00:51:18,176 --> 00:51:21,576
in our lives, our families or other hobbies we have. Or maybe

859
00:51:21,608 --> 00:51:25,240
we want to trade music or podcasts or things

860
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:29,080
like that with each other. And I hope that this information

861
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:33,096
helped a lot of people. And you can write to us on our website

862
00:51:33,168 --> 00:51:36,818
in behalfofanimals.org you can contact us there or comment

863
00:51:36,874 --> 00:51:40,818
on the platforms we are on that allows you to comment, I Think,

864
00:51:40,874 --> 00:51:44,818
Spotify and YouTube and write us a review and

865
00:51:44,874 --> 00:51:48,114
let us know how, what you think about what we talked about today.

866
00:51:48,282 --> 00:51:52,002
And thank you so much, Jen, for being with me today and co hosting,

867
00:51:52,066 --> 00:51:55,330
co piloting the podcast today and talking about a lot of

868
00:51:55,370 --> 00:51:59,170
great stuff that hopefully will help a lot of people. And I

869
00:51:59,210 --> 00:52:02,338
hope to have you on again soon and we can talk about more animal rights

870
00:52:02,394 --> 00:52:06,056
stuff and how we can help animals. Yes. Thank you

871
00:52:06,128 --> 00:52:09,912
so much for having me. This was really great. And anybody else out there

872
00:52:09,936 --> 00:52:13,608
that may have other advice, maybe some other tips that help

873
00:52:13,664 --> 00:52:17,176
you to kind of come back to

874
00:52:17,248 --> 00:52:20,536
more of a relaxing after maybe doing

875
00:52:20,608 --> 00:52:24,152
some animal rights activism, or if you have other ideas that are

876
00:52:24,176 --> 00:52:27,560
productive for you, let us know. Yeah, let us know.

877
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:31,056
And then we can address them, talk about them. And I love questions,

878
00:52:31,088 --> 00:52:34,144
too. And we can always have question episodes too, where people ask us questions.

879
00:52:34,192 --> 00:52:37,760
So that would be awesome. So, all right, we'll see you all

880
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:38,200
next time.