Welcome to In Behalf of Animals: Meet Patrick & Nicole

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Welcome to the in behalf of Animals podcast. I'm Nicole Arcello.

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And I am Patrick Battuello. This podcast is about

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animals. This podcast is about advocacy.

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It's about how we interact with animals every day and

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how animals are a part of our daily lives in ways we

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probably rarely think of. This podcast

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has been a labor of love for Patrick and I, and we are so

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excited to welcome you to our first episode.

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For those of you who do not know us, Patrick and I are president and

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executive director of horse Racing wrongs. We are longtime

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vegans and animal rights activists, and we are also a couple.

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And we are a lot of other things in between.

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So, as we define our mission today and who we are, I think we should

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start with the name of our podcast and how that came about.

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In behalf of animals, right? So, several years

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back, while writing the animal rights blog for the Albany Times Union,

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I decided to create a sister site and was looking for a name.

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I had always liked the phrase on behalf of, but was also

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familiar with the similar construction in behalf of.

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So because words have always fascinated me, I did a deeper

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dive. Turns out, though very subtle, there is a distinction

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between the two. On behalf denotes as the agent

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of, or in place of. Think of a parent signing for his or

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her child or an attorney representing a client in

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court. In behalf, on the other hand, means in the

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interest of, for the benefit of, as a defender of.

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This, of course, resonated with me for what are we activists doing if

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not defending animals? Hence,

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in behalf of animals. So, knowing how

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much the name meant to you, the website meant to you,

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I think this is a perfect name for the podcast, and it kind of brings

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our activism full circle. So I like

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that, too. So, as we embark on this new project into the world of podcasting

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and the name in behalf of animals, it's not just a

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title, right? It's a reflection of our purpose and our commitment.

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And as you explain, it speaks to our role as defenders of animals, advocating for

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their well being and rights. That's what it's all about.

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So we'll be talking about that. So, before we get

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into our individual activism,

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speaking as we're on the subject of our mission.

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So, other social justice movements

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are different than the animal rights movement. And I think a lot of

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us in this for a long time don't take the time

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to reflect on that sometimes as we get frustrated as

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how other people maybe come and go in the movement.

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But in most social justice movements,

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the oppressed are the ones fighting,

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right? So the oppressed group are fighting for themselves.

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Right. And they have allies, and they have people sympathetic to

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that cause, to that movement for one reason or another, whether it's a family

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member, whatever it may be, they will join and fight along with them.

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But in the animal rights movement, the animals can't

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speak for themselves. Our daily lives aren't really

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affected by what's happening to animals.

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We change our lives because of what's happening to animals,

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but our daily lives aren't really affected in a lot of ways.

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Right. I thought that was an excellent insight that you came

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up with a few weeks back. And it's true.

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The other movements, as you referenced,

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they're not going to stop because they're fighting for themselves.

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They can't get justice until they

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force that justice with animals. It's not to

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say that animal rights activists lose interest in

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animal suffering. But again, like you

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said, other things may get in the way,

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may become distractions to them, and because it doesn't affect

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them directly on a day to day basis,

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it's easy for them, easier for animal rights activists to

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come and go, as it were. So, yeah, I think that's an excellent insight,

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and it's something that we should. All be aware of and something that

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has happened to me personally in the past week or

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so. You know, we're not asking people, and as you'll listen

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as we go on in further episodes,

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different people have their different ways of activism, but everyone can be

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an activist in any way, even if it's just a few minutes a

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week or a day, or even occasionally a couple times a month.

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But a few really important things I've noticed.

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I'm always on social media, and I'm watching what's happening.

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But we were a part of a call and

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contact action for Petco recently,

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and the action

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was quick. Petco, for a little background. Petco was

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going against their statements that they were no longer going to sell rabbits.

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I think I don't have it right in front of me, but I'll put it

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in the show notes. They stated a number

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of years ago and then a number of years after that that they would not

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sell rabbits. And then they recently decided on a pilot program to

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see if selling rabbits was going to be profitable in their stores.

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I'm sure that's not the story they were telling the press and

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whatever they were doing, but it's all for profit, right, when they sell an animal.

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So there was an action, and pressure

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was put on by individual activists, you and I are

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not specific to in our jobs, you know,

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at horse racing, wrongs or, you know, we're nothing rabbit

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like paid rabbit advocates, right? So. But we

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took that action, and so many other people did, and a lot of big

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rabbit rescues did as well. And Petco decided to

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change and stop and recommit themselves to

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adoption for rabbits only. Now, we want this.

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This isn't perfect, right? Because we want. We want Petco

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to sell no live animal, right? They sell birds and

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they sell hamsters, and they sell ferrets

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and they sell and fish and all of these animals, we don't want them to

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do that. But it shows that activism works.

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Absolutely. So that is a big, huge.

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That I felt good about being a part of that action, that I took the

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time, and it took two minutes to write an email. You sent a snail mail,

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I think. As well as they did both, right? And I think that it's

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just so important. So now we can look back.

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I can look back, you can. That we were a part of that,

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right? We made that change. And without now

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everybody listening, remember this, if nobody did anything,

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there would be rabbits being sold in Petco stores across

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the country, right? This is a national company.

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So when people's voices are being heard, then the

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animals, you know, and like I said, this isn't perfect, but it is a win.

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And I think it's important to celebrate, of course. And it's

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vigilance and diligence, right. We have to be vigilant of

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situations that arise like this with Petco. And we have to be diligent.

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We have to work at this every single day. There is

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no shortage, of course, of animal exploitation

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in this, in this world. And so we need to find

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something to do on a day to day basis and doesn't need to take up

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a great deal of your time. It could be as simple as

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you pointed out, shooting off an email or signing

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a petition, but try to do something every day

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for animals. And that's part

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of our message here. And activism doesn't necessarily

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have to be going to a protest, although that's a great

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form of activism, as horse racing wrongs has shown to.

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But, you know, there's, there, there has to be action,

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right? Action, right. We have to be their voice.

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And if it's, if it's a quick email or it's a quick phone call,

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another thing, too, I'll just mention really quickly, before we get into more

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about us, is we're very animal forward here, by the way. So we want

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to talk about animals more than us, but, you know, we'll talk about

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how we got into where we are now to sitting in front of two microphones

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in my office. There's been so much

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progress in with designers on fur

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and animal skins, and it's all because of pressure from activists.

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These companies would be selling fur if everyone decided.

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And listen carefully, because I know everyone thinks

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this once in a while. My one little voice doesn't matter.

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Right. And as you said this morning on our walk,

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this can happen quickly on a dime, where a

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major company can announce they're no longer selling

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fur. And that, again, that's grassroots activism.

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So legislative remedies are terrific.

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Obviously, that is the long term goal for many

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of these issues, is to get legislatures to

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act and to make this particular form of animal cruelty

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unlawful. But in a situation like that, with companies

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that have in the past sold furnace,

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pressure brought to bear by activists can

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make the change that we also desire. So I think it's

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another good example of how this can work.

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Companies are turning over fast. I'm seeing this on social media all

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the time. Another company pledged to go for free,

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and that's all because of activists. And I think a lot of that, and we'll,

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I'm sure we'll have an episode on that to get into the fur trade

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a little bit deeper. But also, I think a lot started on

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the Runway fashion shows, the disruptions, and, you know,

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there's different kind of activism. Right. And we're all for it. So we just talked

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about it. All right? We talked about protesting. We talked about disruptions. We talked about

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a phone call, a quick email. All of it is activism.

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Yeah. Short of violence, there's no wrong way

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to advocate for animals as far as we're concerned. So whatever

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form that resonates with

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you on a particular issue, we think it's great. So there are

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some within the movement who believe that only their way, only the way that

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they follow is the correct way, and we don't look at it

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that way. So direct actions like those on the

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runways make a difference, and your

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one. Little voice can make a huge difference for

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animals. So, please, if you're ever thinking that that's what we're

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here for, we're here to help you, to be a, to have

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you join our community, to get you to

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get to know you as much as you get to know us, we don't have

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all the answers, and that's why we'll have guests and experts helping

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with different ways you can be involved different animal issues.

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There's one podcast coming up. I'll do a little spoiler. I won't say who the

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guest is, but she was for one animal issue,

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and we got into two horrific animal issues that

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I didn't really realize were happening.

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And it just really makes you understand that we

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just have to be voices for them every single day. Right?

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Vigilant and diligent. So how about

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we talk about how you became Patrick, an animal

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rights activist? Sure. So the

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primary impetus was reading Peter Singer's animal

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liberation. It was published in 1975. I received it as a

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Christmas gift in 2001.

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I began reading it in January of 2002,

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and getting through the first few chapters,

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it was a light switch for me. So I saw this as

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wrong as of, as anything that I had ever

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thought about in my 36 years on this planet.

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And it was clear that I had to make a major

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change in my life. But prior to that, and I always think

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about our activism as planting seeds,

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right. We're out there just trying to get people

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to think, to reflect on what they're doing

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in their own lives, and we have to plant seeds.

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Toward that end, I think about some of the seeds that may have been planted

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with me. For instance, my son,

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who is a lifelong vegetarian, for the most part lifelong,

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was turning his nose up at meat. This is, again,

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prior to me becoming a vegetarian and then vegan,

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he objected. And initially we thought, well,

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he eats McDonald's happy meals. He's just being

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difficult and finicky. But in fact,

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it was called chicken. And he, very,

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very intelligent person. He realized

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that this was an animal and it's being served to

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him. And he rejected that.

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So that, of course, prompted me to do

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more introspection on my own part.

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And that was one of the seeds.

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I also had a former employee.

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I was in the restaurant business for many, many years,

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and this employee and his girlfriend at the time decided

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to become vegan. And I really wasn't

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aware fully of what veganism entailed.

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And again, a very intelligent person, and he was able to convey a

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lot of those ideas to me and, again, provoked more

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thought and reflection. And then one of the other

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seeds that I felt was planted, and this

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was, I thought about after the fact. So after I became

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vegan, one of my father's former employees from his

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remodeling business back in the seventies started coming in

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my restaurant on a regular basis. And we just started know to talk

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and get to know each other. And I remember him as a

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boy, but what I didn't know was he

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was actually a vegetarian and is a vegetarian lifelong.

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And I. And I thought. And we actually talked about this.

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Did he talk about why he was.

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He was an ethical vegetarian. Did he talk about it with the

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other workers? Sometimes during the summer, my father would take my brothers

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and I on the work sites, and we pretend to

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be contractors. And so we were around the guys,

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and so perhaps I overheard some snippets of conversation

242
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about why he didn't eat animals. And then

243
00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,056
the fourth thing that really has stuck

244
00:15:07,088 --> 00:15:10,648
with me was we had a pet rabbit.

245
00:15:10,704 --> 00:15:14,540
And this, again, this is four years before I became vegan.

246
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:21,348
I was allergic, or am allergic to cats, and we

247
00:15:21,364 --> 00:15:24,972
didn't have a dog, so we decided we were going to adopt a

248
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rabbit, and we put the rabbit in a cage like people

249
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do. And I remember coming down every

250
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morning and seeing him in the cage and saying, this isn't right.

251
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This doesn't feel right to me. And so eventually,

252
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we got him into a penned area and then a

253
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room all to his own, and in time, he was given a

254
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,136
full run of the house, upstairs and down, just like a dog

255
00:15:52,168 --> 00:15:56,376
or a cat. And again, it was a connection with

256
00:15:56,408 --> 00:15:59,536
that animal. Just looking at him through those bars and saying,

257
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this doesn't feel right. So these are things that happened to me

258
00:16:03,672 --> 00:16:07,472
prior to reading Peter Singer, and I

259
00:16:07,496 --> 00:16:10,992
believe that that kind of formed a foundation for my

260
00:16:11,016 --> 00:16:14,560
eventual change. Yeah, I think seeds, like, you're saying seeds

261
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,058
were planted, right. You know, if you don't know anyone, that was.

262
00:16:18,224 --> 00:16:21,566
That it was vegan or vegetarian, right. Before then,

263
00:16:21,598 --> 00:16:24,718
maybe I didn't make the connection. That's why I always tell people.

264
00:16:24,774 --> 00:16:28,182
Tell people that you're vegan or vegetarian. That former employee I

265
00:16:28,206 --> 00:16:31,782
referenced, he was the first person I had ever met who was

266
00:16:31,806 --> 00:16:34,810
a vegetarian. I mean, I knew what vegetarianism was,

267
00:16:35,270 --> 00:16:38,734
but, yeah, first person. So it's a lot different today.

268
00:16:38,902 --> 00:16:42,770
There are more of us. There's more information out there.

269
00:16:43,190 --> 00:16:46,578
So it's not a strange thing, not a strange lifestyle,

270
00:16:46,774 --> 00:16:50,162
but, yeah, back then, it was new to

271
00:16:50,186 --> 00:16:53,226
me. Yeah. And so what was your. So. I know, I know.

272
00:16:53,258 --> 00:16:56,634
Well, I know your first journey into activism

273
00:16:56,682 --> 00:16:59,218
was with your family, actually. Right.

274
00:16:59,314 --> 00:17:02,338
So I love philosophy.

275
00:17:02,394 --> 00:17:05,650
I love history. So I immediately

276
00:17:05,690 --> 00:17:08,950
started reading other animal rights

277
00:17:09,370 --> 00:17:13,270
writers, Peter, Gary Francione, Tom Reagan.

278
00:17:14,060 --> 00:17:17,492
And again, it just became clearer

279
00:17:17,516 --> 00:17:21,572
and clearer for me as to, this is the most

280
00:17:21,636 --> 00:17:24,680
ethical thing you can do on a day to day basis.

281
00:17:25,060 --> 00:17:28,660
And I wanted to share what I had learned with

282
00:17:28,780 --> 00:17:32,740
the people closest to me. So I compiled

283
00:17:32,780 --> 00:17:36,460
this packet with a cover letter for my

284
00:17:36,500 --> 00:17:39,860
siblings. I have four siblings, and presented that to them

285
00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:43,514
at Christmas time. Just asking again, just please,

286
00:17:43,642 --> 00:17:47,706
with an open heart and an open mind, read a lot of these.

287
00:17:47,858 --> 00:17:51,354
A lot of the great writers, a lot of the great thinkers

288
00:17:51,442 --> 00:17:54,818
throughout the centuries were in this packet. And what they had to

289
00:17:54,834 --> 00:17:58,074
say about animals and eating animals more

290
00:17:58,122 --> 00:18:01,338
specifically. And I didn't get a good reaction.

291
00:18:01,434 --> 00:18:05,418
So it was very disappointing for me that

292
00:18:05,474 --> 00:18:09,118
my siblings did nothing. I could not make the same connection.

293
00:18:09,174 --> 00:18:11,838
They're otherwise good and decent people.

294
00:18:12,014 --> 00:18:15,454
But, you know, one said that, you know, she didn't want to,

295
00:18:15,542 --> 00:18:18,798
it was too hard for her to read

296
00:18:18,894 --> 00:18:22,366
about what happens to animals. And another one

297
00:18:22,558 --> 00:18:25,782
very, very catholic upbringing believed

298
00:18:25,806 --> 00:18:28,870
that this was ordained by God, you know,

299
00:18:28,910 --> 00:18:31,730
dominion over, over the animals.

300
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,944
And so, yeah, it was very disappointing. So it was a long time ago,

301
00:18:35,992 --> 00:18:40,032
too. It was 2020 years, 2020 plus years ago. So it

302
00:18:40,056 --> 00:18:43,768
wasn't. So I think also there wasn't a lot

303
00:18:43,784 --> 00:18:47,380
of vegans.

304
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,376
I mean, there were vegans, but there, it wasn't like it is now. You know,

305
00:18:51,408 --> 00:18:54,544
like, vegan is all over food

306
00:18:54,592 --> 00:18:58,080
products, all over everywhere. Right. It's all over social media.

307
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,300
It's like this celebrity is going vegan. It's, it's just, it's a household

308
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,864
and. Look at, and we can, obviously, we'll get into this in other episodes,

309
00:19:06,912 --> 00:19:10,720
but it's perceived as a very restricted

310
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,040
lifestyle. Right. And I could never go vegan.

311
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,392
And, you know, where would I eat? And what would I eat at home?

312
00:19:17,456 --> 00:19:21,140
And, you know, what if I'm invited to gatherings and

313
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,368
food is the, is what brings people together or families together.

314
00:19:25,464 --> 00:19:29,120
And so, yeah, it's seen as restrictive and

315
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,518
I, and so it's our job as advocates and

316
00:19:32,614 --> 00:19:37,014
activists to, you know, to convey that

317
00:19:37,062 --> 00:19:40,174
this is not at all a restrictive lifestyle. And I

318
00:19:40,182 --> 00:19:43,238
do want to point out, so your family and your, you know, this was your

319
00:19:43,254 --> 00:19:46,854
first, like, activism. Like, I'm going to put this together. This is a, you know,

320
00:19:46,982 --> 00:19:51,810
this is an airtight, you know, case. Right. And, but they

321
00:19:52,110 --> 00:19:56,734
didn't, you know, go for it and make a change, but they also understood

322
00:19:56,822 --> 00:20:00,310
why you were vegan. They respected,

323
00:20:00,390 --> 00:20:03,990
and they respected that. Right. And that's off at it. That's a good thing.

324
00:20:04,030 --> 00:20:07,230
Right. They respected it, but right again,

325
00:20:07,310 --> 00:20:10,142
it's. And I know a lot of people have harder times and, you know,

326
00:20:10,166 --> 00:20:13,462
we'll probably have an episode about that, too, but we'll go back and

327
00:20:13,486 --> 00:20:16,814
listen to this episode and see what other episodes we need to have. But I

328
00:20:16,822 --> 00:20:20,014
think a lot of people do have a hard time with, with family and friends

329
00:20:20,062 --> 00:20:23,086
even. Yeah, it's nothing, it's nothing new when. They make that change.

330
00:20:23,278 --> 00:20:26,774
So after that, just to

331
00:20:26,782 --> 00:20:30,854
kind of follow activism a little bit, and we can talk about. And you

332
00:20:30,862 --> 00:20:34,574
kind of told your vegan story a little bit, too. So after that, you.

333
00:20:34,742 --> 00:20:38,614
What was the next step in your activism? Yeah, I was always

334
00:20:38,742 --> 00:20:42,126
looking for outlets for my activism.

335
00:20:42,198 --> 00:20:45,142
How can I advocate for oppressed,

336
00:20:45,206 --> 00:20:48,758
suffering animals? And one of the things that I did early

337
00:20:48,814 --> 00:20:52,870
on was join a protest. There were ringling protests down in downtown

338
00:20:52,910 --> 00:20:57,310
Albany, which you were very much a part of, and that was

339
00:20:57,610 --> 00:21:01,146
empowering. It was something that I didn't think that

340
00:21:01,178 --> 00:21:05,314
I would ever do. I had never protested anything

341
00:21:05,362 --> 00:21:09,282
before that I'm more of an introvert

342
00:21:09,466 --> 00:21:12,946
by nature, but it felt really good to be out

343
00:21:12,978 --> 00:21:17,418
there speaking for the animals and voicing

344
00:21:17,474 --> 00:21:21,270
outrage for what is happening, especially to the elephants.

345
00:21:22,050 --> 00:21:25,458
And then, because I was in the food business, it was a

346
00:21:25,474 --> 00:21:29,074
family business with a chain of pizzerias

347
00:21:29,202 --> 00:21:33,258
that I got involved in, I decided to incorporate

348
00:21:33,354 --> 00:21:35,870
vegan food onto the menu,

349
00:21:36,210 --> 00:21:40,210
which was a first in the area. Vegan pizzas and calzones

350
00:21:40,290 --> 00:21:42,990
and sandwiches and vegan desserts.

351
00:21:43,690 --> 00:21:47,564
And then I took the next step, which was opening

352
00:21:47,652 --> 00:21:50,676
an all vegan restaurant in Albany,

353
00:21:50,828 --> 00:21:54,444
the first of its kind in the Capital Region, one of the first

354
00:21:54,492 --> 00:21:59,396
in all of upstate New York. So it was quite

355
00:21:59,428 --> 00:22:03,228
a risk for me to take personally, but I

356
00:22:03,244 --> 00:22:06,996
felt like I had to do it. It didn't succeed. And as it turns

357
00:22:07,028 --> 00:22:11,260
out, but today, there are several all

358
00:22:11,300 --> 00:22:14,444
vegan eateries in the capital region. So I think it

359
00:22:14,452 --> 00:22:17,418
was just a bit ahead of its time. So,

360
00:22:17,474 --> 00:22:21,634
yeah. And then I, of course, I got involved in writing the animal rights blog

361
00:22:21,682 --> 00:22:25,170
for the Times Union back in 2009. And you pitched that

362
00:22:25,210 --> 00:22:28,474
to the. I pitched that. Right. There was a community blog,

363
00:22:28,642 --> 00:22:31,290
blogs page on the Times Union website,

364
00:22:31,450 --> 00:22:34,122
which was the most popular part of its website.

365
00:22:34,306 --> 00:22:38,154
And I did. I called the webmaster and blog

366
00:22:38,202 --> 00:22:41,880
master and said, hey, how about a blog

367
00:22:42,050 --> 00:22:45,740
focused on animal rights? And first, he was resistant,

368
00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:49,164
figuring it was a bit too controversial, but I kept at it,

369
00:22:49,212 --> 00:22:52,508
and I said, they really? I think. I think it would be a great service

370
00:22:52,564 --> 00:22:55,756
to your readers. And, yeah, it worked. And it turned

371
00:22:55,788 --> 00:22:59,364
out to be one of the most widely read of the blogs

372
00:22:59,412 --> 00:23:02,324
on the TU, and it opened up all kinds of doors for me. Featured in

373
00:23:02,332 --> 00:23:05,476
the print edition multiple times. Yeah. Yup. And then I was

374
00:23:05,508 --> 00:23:09,222
contacted by two different academics, one a

375
00:23:09,246 --> 00:23:12,606
philosopher who particularly enjoyed my post

376
00:23:12,758 --> 00:23:16,502
on Kant, a famous german philosopher. And then I

377
00:23:16,526 --> 00:23:20,110
was contacted by textbook publishing company,

378
00:23:20,270 --> 00:23:24,294
who wanted to use one of my articles in

379
00:23:24,382 --> 00:23:28,254
their upcoming textbook for college students.

380
00:23:28,422 --> 00:23:31,926
So that was quite gratifying for me.

381
00:23:31,958 --> 00:23:35,454
So it did open a lot of doors. It was a very popular,

382
00:23:35,622 --> 00:23:39,006
like I said, a popular website. And then

383
00:23:39,038 --> 00:23:42,542
from there, that's how horse racing wrongs began. I was researching a

384
00:23:42,566 --> 00:23:45,982
post for horse racing as I tried to cover almost

385
00:23:46,046 --> 00:23:49,814
every animal related issue. And then at the time, I found

386
00:23:49,862 --> 00:23:53,222
that there was nothing out there. There was no information on the

387
00:23:53,246 --> 00:23:56,806
cruelty and the killing. There were no groups focused on horse racing.

388
00:23:56,838 --> 00:24:00,422
So that's how hw came to be. And we've grown into

389
00:24:00,486 --> 00:24:03,722
the nation's preeminent anti racing organization

390
00:24:03,866 --> 00:24:06,882
since then. And, you know, that's, that's Nicole.

391
00:24:06,986 --> 00:24:10,842
And by and through horse racing wrongs, we have

392
00:24:10,866 --> 00:24:13,858
a strong abolition animal rights message.

393
00:24:13,914 --> 00:24:17,106
Absolutely. In every blog post and everything we do.

394
00:24:17,258 --> 00:24:21,274
Right. You know, it's not just about horses. So I really love your story because,

395
00:24:21,362 --> 00:24:25,234
I mean, I love you, but I really love your story because it just

396
00:24:25,282 --> 00:24:29,202
shows so much persistence. And as, and I'm really glad that

397
00:24:29,226 --> 00:24:32,258
you said so. I didn't have to say it, that you're an introvert in a

398
00:24:32,274 --> 00:24:35,826
lot of ways, because I think a lot of people feel the same way.

399
00:24:35,858 --> 00:24:39,058
Like they don't want to be out there and maybe they're not organizers or

400
00:24:39,074 --> 00:24:42,642
they're not, you know, to get people together and do things, but there's a

401
00:24:42,666 --> 00:24:46,530
lot of things, and you know what? Some things work for us

402
00:24:46,690 --> 00:24:49,826
and some things don't. So it's not, you know, a failure or whatever.

403
00:24:49,898 --> 00:24:53,122
It's just like, that wasn't what I was meant to do. Yeah.

404
00:24:53,186 --> 00:24:56,274
So horse racing wrongs. You've written op eds.

405
00:24:56,322 --> 00:24:59,546
You've done interviews on, you know, I know you won't say this,

406
00:24:59,578 --> 00:25:03,562
but I will. CNN and HBO, real sports. And you've

407
00:25:03,586 --> 00:25:06,890
written op eds for Katie Couric and MSNBC and the Washington

408
00:25:06,930 --> 00:25:09,922
Post. And those are always, you know,

409
00:25:09,946 --> 00:25:13,442
that's all activism and that's, you know, being a voice for the

410
00:25:13,466 --> 00:25:17,266
animals every day. So with all that persistence. Right. And just,

411
00:25:17,338 --> 00:25:21,250
you mentioned the introverted personality. And I've been

412
00:25:21,290 --> 00:25:24,810
asked by people, you know, how do I, you know, summon the

413
00:25:24,850 --> 00:25:28,158
strength to stand up and the courage to stand up at a, at a meeting

414
00:25:28,214 --> 00:25:31,222
and speak for the animals, especially in

415
00:25:31,246 --> 00:25:34,550
an intimidating environment. And I always advise, look,

416
00:25:34,590 --> 00:25:38,526
just channel the animals, channel their suffering,

417
00:25:38,678 --> 00:25:41,990
and that'll get you through. That'll empower you.

418
00:25:42,150 --> 00:25:45,486
And I feel like that has always worked for me. And they've

419
00:25:45,518 --> 00:25:49,110
always come back and said, yeah, that was great advice. And so anyone

420
00:25:49,150 --> 00:25:52,574
who thinks that they can't do it, if they have this terrible

421
00:25:52,622 --> 00:25:55,974
anxiety about public speaking or, or just

422
00:25:56,062 --> 00:25:59,470
speaking truth to power, just channel that

423
00:25:59,510 --> 00:26:03,690
suffering. Yeah. You'll find your place in the world for this. If this is something

424
00:26:04,750 --> 00:26:08,350
that we hope is in your heart and speaks to you and

425
00:26:08,390 --> 00:26:12,110
motivates you to make changes in your life every

426
00:26:12,150 --> 00:26:15,726
day, personally, to be out there and

427
00:26:15,758 --> 00:26:19,286
advocating at the same time, it is important when you feel

428
00:26:19,318 --> 00:26:23,232
like you're choked up by, I can't pick

429
00:26:23,256 --> 00:26:27,112
up the phone and make a call, or I can, and I will say

430
00:26:27,176 --> 00:26:30,376
how I was like that a lot as I tell a little bit of my

431
00:26:30,408 --> 00:26:33,576
story. Yeah. You know, picking up a phone and dialing and

432
00:26:33,608 --> 00:26:36,648
talking to somebody was like, what? I can't do this,

433
00:26:36,704 --> 00:26:40,416
right? But when I say to myself, well, I. The animals

434
00:26:40,448 --> 00:26:43,824
are counting on me. I have to. It just flows. Yeah.

435
00:26:43,872 --> 00:26:46,512
If not me, who? Right? If. Yeah,

436
00:26:46,576 --> 00:26:48,920
exactly. If not me. So I'd love to hear.

437
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,548
So you know my story. You already. I know

438
00:26:52,564 --> 00:26:55,860
the listeners would love to. Hear your story, but my story is so

439
00:26:55,900 --> 00:26:59,172
much different than yours. I did know a couple of vegetarians

440
00:26:59,236 --> 00:27:02,524
thinking, you know, thinking about your story, I knew two people,

441
00:27:02,572 --> 00:27:06,360
I think, that were vegetarian or sort of vegetarian

442
00:27:06,820 --> 00:27:10,212
or whatever their, you know, definition of vegetarian.

443
00:27:10,316 --> 00:27:13,628
But I came to it for health reasons. I had a couple health issues,

444
00:27:13,804 --> 00:27:17,740
and I found that eating by accident.

445
00:27:17,820 --> 00:27:21,116
Now, this was 15 years ago, so there wasn't the Internet we have

446
00:27:21,148 --> 00:27:24,668
now. We had Internet. So I was able to do some research on how to

447
00:27:24,684 --> 00:27:28,044
feel better for this issue that I had. It was like a

448
00:27:28,052 --> 00:27:31,524
low blood sugar issue that we don't need to talk about. But anyway,

449
00:27:31,612 --> 00:27:35,964
I realized I felt so much better eating without eating meat.

450
00:27:36,092 --> 00:27:39,468
And so then I was

451
00:27:39,484 --> 00:27:43,200
in the salon industry for 18 years,

452
00:27:43,540 --> 00:27:47,196
and I told one of my clients, I said, just kind of, you know,

453
00:27:47,228 --> 00:27:50,328
just joking around, like, I think I'm vegetarian now.

454
00:27:50,464 --> 00:27:53,208
And she said, oh, you have to read this book called Skinny Bitch. And I

455
00:27:53,224 --> 00:27:55,632
was like, oh, I'll read the book skinny bitch, because that sounds like a book

456
00:27:55,656 --> 00:27:59,008
I'd like to read. And I think she went home and got it and

457
00:27:59,024 --> 00:28:02,520
brought it back to me same day. And I went home and I started reading.

458
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,440
And it's funny, and it's full of swear words, and it tells you to cut

459
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,176
out, you know, sugar and caffeine. And I kept reading, and alcohol, and I kept

460
00:28:09,208 --> 00:28:13,080
reading because I like all those things. But I got

461
00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:16,952
into a couple chapters, and it hits you in the face with what happens

462
00:28:16,976 --> 00:28:20,296
to animals in the factory farming system, right? This was

463
00:28:20,328 --> 00:28:23,976
my first exposure. Now, it's so crazy that you read

464
00:28:24,008 --> 00:28:27,144
Peter singer and I read skinny bitch. I think it's really

465
00:28:27,192 --> 00:28:30,528
funny, but I think it's good. So people, you know, you don't have

466
00:28:30,544 --> 00:28:33,416
to have this huge philosophy background or this,

467
00:28:33,448 --> 00:28:36,672
like, you know, this intelligent,

468
00:28:36,776 --> 00:28:39,992
you know, you know, truth seeking mind, you know,

469
00:28:40,016 --> 00:28:43,180
it just came up in a salon conversation, right?

470
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,088
So I immediately was like, okay, I can't.

471
00:28:47,264 --> 00:28:50,672
I can't eat animals anymore. I think I tried to eat

472
00:28:50,696 --> 00:28:54,216
a piece of chicken a couple weeks later, and I just couldn't do it.

473
00:28:54,288 --> 00:28:57,576
I just immediately saw. And this

474
00:28:57,608 --> 00:29:01,728
book had no pictures. I have to point that out. It had no pictures

475
00:29:01,824 --> 00:29:05,256
of factory farms. It had no pictures of animal

476
00:29:05,288 --> 00:29:09,340
slaughter. But in my mind, it was so detailed.

477
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,128
I saw it as I was eating, and I couldn't. I took one bite and

478
00:29:13,144 --> 00:29:16,232
I said, that's it. So then I was a vegetarian. And in the

479
00:29:16,256 --> 00:29:20,016
book, skinny bitch, it does talk about dairy and eggs.

480
00:29:20,088 --> 00:29:23,552
I didn't really make that connection. So as I

481
00:29:23,616 --> 00:29:27,432
was kind of like, okay, I like, and this is funny, and we'll have an

482
00:29:27,496 --> 00:29:31,336
episode or two, maybe, about food, because I became somebody

483
00:29:31,368 --> 00:29:34,880
who didn't really cook into a vegan chef

484
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,256
and baker. Throughout this, your life kind

485
00:29:38,288 --> 00:29:41,584
of changes in a lot of ways when you become a vegan and animal rights

486
00:29:41,632 --> 00:29:45,016
activist. But anyway, I only liked maybe two or three vegetables.

487
00:29:45,048 --> 00:29:48,232
So I went to the library. I was

488
00:29:48,256 --> 00:29:51,568
always a big reader. Not the kind of reader

489
00:29:51,664 --> 00:29:55,528
Patrick is, not a philosophical type

490
00:29:55,584 --> 00:29:57,816
reader. I don't even know how to talk. I don't even know how to say

491
00:29:57,848 --> 00:30:01,288
that. But I like to read. You're selling yourself short.

492
00:30:01,384 --> 00:30:05,160
I like to read novels, and I like to read. I read everything

493
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,578
on the bestseller lists. That's what I always did, the nonfiction and fiction.

494
00:30:08,704 --> 00:30:12,182
So that was my thing that I did. But I went to the library because

495
00:30:12,206 --> 00:30:15,650
I knew it so well, and I went to the cookbook section and took out

496
00:30:15,950 --> 00:30:18,650
stacks of anything vegetarian.

497
00:30:19,150 --> 00:30:22,246
And there wasn't a lot of vegan. Even 15 years ago, there wasn't.

498
00:30:22,278 --> 00:30:25,830
There was just a handful. And at the library. So I brought those books home,

499
00:30:25,870 --> 00:30:29,582
spread them out on the floor, and figured out how to substitute the, you know,

500
00:30:29,726 --> 00:30:32,822
three vegetables I liked for all these other vegetables, I was like, oh, God,

501
00:30:32,846 --> 00:30:35,166
I'm never. I don't know, you know, I'll be a junk food vegan, whatever.

502
00:30:35,198 --> 00:30:38,282
I don't even. I didn't even know another vegan yet. Yeah. And then,

503
00:30:38,346 --> 00:30:41,690
you know, it just started, and, you know, the food, you know, came easy

504
00:30:41,850 --> 00:30:45,226
after I just realized I. That's how I think

505
00:30:45,258 --> 00:30:48,530
I became a vegan baker and cooked just because I

506
00:30:48,570 --> 00:30:52,130
needed to experiment. And I really loved dessert, so I really

507
00:30:52,170 --> 00:30:55,346
wanted to recreate every dessert there was. But in

508
00:30:55,378 --> 00:30:59,990
those vegan, and recreate them she does. And in those vegan cookbooks

509
00:31:00,690 --> 00:31:04,674
that there was back then, there, in between the chapters,

510
00:31:04,802 --> 00:31:09,010
there were little snippets of why you shouldn't have eggs,

511
00:31:09,130 --> 00:31:12,418
why there's new in the vegan cookbooks, because there

512
00:31:12,434 --> 00:31:16,346
was vegetarian. So just wanted to make sure I said that right. But there

513
00:31:16,378 --> 00:31:20,186
was little snippets why we don't eat eggs, why it's cruel to

514
00:31:20,218 --> 00:31:23,710
eat dairy. And I couldn't ignore it anymore.

515
00:31:24,450 --> 00:31:28,250
So I still didn't know another vegan. I was just kind of going on,

516
00:31:28,290 --> 00:31:31,470
I think some of my coworkers are like, oh, you're going to be vegan soon.

517
00:31:32,030 --> 00:31:35,990
I was, you know, just starting to look all that up. And then finally

518
00:31:36,030 --> 00:31:39,982
I was having vegan weeks, vegan days, vegan weeks.

519
00:31:40,126 --> 00:31:42,846
And then I said, okay, I just have to do it. I just have to

520
00:31:42,878 --> 00:31:46,650
stop, you know, contributing to any of this. And that's what I did. So then

521
00:31:47,030 --> 00:31:50,530
I went, you sold some of my story. I went to a,

522
00:31:51,110 --> 00:31:54,070
I went to a Ringling Brothers protest in Albany,

523
00:31:54,110 --> 00:31:57,822
New York, and I stood out there with a sign, and I was

524
00:31:57,846 --> 00:32:01,316
a yemenite, quiet child. I don't,

525
00:32:01,388 --> 00:32:04,548
as an, as an only child, I don't think I'm an introvert.

526
00:32:04,604 --> 00:32:08,148
I don't think anyone would. No, you're not an introvert. Say I'm an introvert.

527
00:32:08,324 --> 00:32:11,668
But I was a little bit nervous about that. And I stood out

528
00:32:11,684 --> 00:32:15,172
there holding a sign, and I met such great people.

529
00:32:15,316 --> 00:32:18,812
And I remember people hugging me and thanking me

530
00:32:18,836 --> 00:32:22,228
for going to the protest and then how good I felt walking

531
00:32:22,284 --> 00:32:26,264
back with everybody and saying, there's this whole world out here

532
00:32:26,452 --> 00:32:29,696
that I don't know about, you know? And I think that was coming off of,

533
00:32:29,728 --> 00:32:33,224
like, occupy Wall street and all that, you know?

534
00:32:33,352 --> 00:32:36,752
And I think people thought about protesting, you know,

535
00:32:36,776 --> 00:32:40,072
that there's like, they're gonna get arrested and all these things are gonna

536
00:32:40,096 --> 00:32:43,288
happen, but that doesn't happen. That doesn't happen. I've been protesting for that

537
00:32:43,344 --> 00:32:46,712
for 15 years, and I've never been arrested, but I think that,

538
00:32:46,816 --> 00:32:50,136
and that kind of spurred, like, I have to do more. So I

539
00:32:50,168 --> 00:32:53,656
did. I started a blog right away. Yeah, but before you go into that.

540
00:32:53,728 --> 00:32:57,696
What did I, what did I forget? How about the connection that you personally made

541
00:32:57,728 --> 00:33:01,500
with the elephants? Oh, the connection with the elephants. That was.

542
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,592
Yeah. I mean, if. I guess if somebody, if somebody

543
00:33:05,656 --> 00:33:09,728
asked me my favorite animals at the time at

544
00:33:09,744 --> 00:33:12,448
the, well, I don't know. I thought it was. I was going vegan for cows

545
00:33:12,464 --> 00:33:15,728
and chickens and pigs. Right. And then horses and elephants became my.

546
00:33:15,824 --> 00:33:18,792
Right. But when they were being paraded into the building.

547
00:33:18,976 --> 00:33:22,526
Yeah. So when we're out there protesting back then, and there was other

548
00:33:22,558 --> 00:33:26,118
animals, too, I have to point out, because someone will comment and say there

549
00:33:26,134 --> 00:33:29,526
was other animals. Yes. But at that point, it was mainly the elephants

550
00:33:29,558 --> 00:33:32,770
were the focus. There was tigers and other animals, too.

551
00:33:34,830 --> 00:33:37,290
So when you're out there, it's,

552
00:33:37,910 --> 00:33:40,838
you know, you're feeling good because you're protesting, you're doing the right thing, you're educating

553
00:33:40,894 --> 00:33:45,210
people. But I really didn't know,

554
00:33:46,110 --> 00:33:49,486
really feel what I was really there for until the elephants came

555
00:33:49,518 --> 00:33:52,694
out. Right. And I know other activists saw this because they used to walk

556
00:33:52,782 --> 00:33:56,130
down the streets. Well, they. Yeah, they would. They would unload them

557
00:33:56,470 --> 00:33:59,910
down by the. The train, the port, I think, or something. Yeah,

558
00:33:59,990 --> 00:34:03,542
something like that. And then they would make them walk. Make them walk to the

559
00:34:03,566 --> 00:34:07,182
arena on. The streets of Albany. Chained. Chained,

560
00:34:07,326 --> 00:34:12,262
horrible. These are incredibly

561
00:34:12,326 --> 00:34:16,339
intelligent, deepest animals.

562
00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:21,439
And then go out, and I didn't. I didn't see that. I wasn't

563
00:34:21,599 --> 00:34:25,519
there for those days, actually. I think they would keep

564
00:34:25,559 --> 00:34:29,143
them out in the street and feed them like, melons so people

565
00:34:29,191 --> 00:34:32,439
could see. And they would try to draw crowds, and they would have seven

566
00:34:32,479 --> 00:34:35,591
shows in four days at. They wouldn't.

567
00:34:35,615 --> 00:34:39,167
Was on Thursday. And they would. They would continue all weekend and

568
00:34:39,183 --> 00:34:43,071
have one for school children. They'd take school buses, full kids to see

569
00:34:43,135 --> 00:34:47,660
the circus. It's awful, especially now, as we think about this was.

570
00:34:47,740 --> 00:34:50,460
But I'm getting to that, that we were down there, and they were. They were

571
00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:53,780
leaving the arena, and they were. And they. When the elephants came out. Right.

572
00:34:53,820 --> 00:34:57,492
Go ahead. And it was soul crushing. Soul crushing to me.

573
00:34:57,516 --> 00:35:00,596
And I knew, and I was already an activist, but it was like, that was

574
00:35:00,628 --> 00:35:04,732
the day where I was like, I'm dedicating my life to this. Yeah. Because I.

575
00:35:04,796 --> 00:35:08,932
If you make eye contact, I know you make eye contact with an

576
00:35:08,956 --> 00:35:12,196
elephant. I was collapsing on the sidewalk, just seeing them

577
00:35:12,228 --> 00:35:15,940
come out. Right. And bearing witness and trying to see.

578
00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:19,592
I'm trying not to cry, but seeing, you know, what I was standing

579
00:35:19,616 --> 00:35:23,024
out there for, you know, and I dedicated

580
00:35:23,072 --> 00:35:26,752
my life to that. And that was to be

581
00:35:26,776 --> 00:35:30,420
a voice for all animals. The sadness, the desperation,

582
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,260
the resignation, the helplessness.

583
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,576
It was all there. Yeah. Thank you for saying all that for. Me, because you

584
00:35:38,608 --> 00:35:42,130
make that connection. You never go back. Never.

585
00:35:43,230 --> 00:35:46,614
And that was it. And it was like, I visited sanctuary,

586
00:35:46,702 --> 00:35:50,542
animal sanctuaries, right? After I went vegan, by the

587
00:35:50,566 --> 00:35:54,890
way, to make myself really

588
00:35:55,270 --> 00:35:59,086
commit to being vegan, I did make myself watch a video, I think.

589
00:35:59,198 --> 00:36:02,502
I don't remember if it was meat, your meat. It was probably, earthlings, meet your

590
00:36:02,526 --> 00:36:05,878
meat. So that's before the protest, because the protest was about half

591
00:36:05,894 --> 00:36:09,396
a year after I was already vegan, I think. And I made myself do that

592
00:36:09,428 --> 00:36:12,460
because I had to really make sure that I wasn't going to go back,

593
00:36:12,540 --> 00:36:16,516
that I wasn't, you know, so that was my personal torture

594
00:36:16,548 --> 00:36:20,124
I put myself through. Right. But, yeah, I think that,

595
00:36:20,212 --> 00:36:24,124
you know, once I saw those elephants and I went to sanctuaries and

596
00:36:24,172 --> 00:36:27,468
to. I remember going to

597
00:36:27,484 --> 00:36:30,476
some of the local sanctuaries, and I could. And I was looking, you know,

598
00:36:30,508 --> 00:36:34,468
seeing the pigs and the goats and the, and the chickens and the turkeys

599
00:36:34,524 --> 00:36:38,560
and, and the turkeys always got me. But the cows

600
00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:42,240
were the animals that really got me. They're just so big

601
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,160
and just so majestic in their eyes. And pigs eyes, too,

602
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,528
look just like ours, you know, and they look like

603
00:36:48,544 --> 00:36:52,416
a human eye. Yep. In these animals heads,

604
00:36:52,568 --> 00:36:55,720
you know, I mean, and that just really got to me.

605
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,800
And, you know, I love animals, and I fight for all animals equally. Dogs,

606
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,536
cats, fish, you know, horses. And that is one thing. You know,

607
00:37:02,648 --> 00:37:06,220
you talk about their eyes and you

608
00:37:06,260 --> 00:37:09,948
see the intelligence that is there. Just one thing I wanted to mention.

609
00:37:10,044 --> 00:37:13,068
While I was writing the blog for the Times union,

610
00:37:13,164 --> 00:37:16,800
I used to focus a great deal on

611
00:37:17,300 --> 00:37:20,708
ethological studies, so animal behavior studies

612
00:37:20,764 --> 00:37:24,076
that were coming out.

613
00:37:24,268 --> 00:37:28,116
In fact, we've learned more about animal behavior,

614
00:37:28,188 --> 00:37:31,706
animal cognition in the past 30 years

615
00:37:31,738 --> 00:37:36,386
than in the whole of history combined. And I

616
00:37:36,418 --> 00:37:40,626
wanted to focus on that because when

617
00:37:40,658 --> 00:37:44,922
you know how much we are bonded

618
00:37:45,066 --> 00:37:48,514
and binded with the rest of the animal kingdom,

619
00:37:48,642 --> 00:37:51,794
it should make it that much more difficult

620
00:37:51,962 --> 00:37:55,298
to abuse them, to hurt them, to kill them,

621
00:37:55,354 --> 00:37:59,062
to eat them. So that's why I like to focus

622
00:37:59,126 --> 00:38:03,182
on that when you. When you know the intelligence level

623
00:38:03,246 --> 00:38:06,838
of pigs and even

624
00:38:06,894 --> 00:38:10,150
chickens, it's, how can,

625
00:38:10,230 --> 00:38:14,958
how can you support a system that abuses

626
00:38:15,014 --> 00:38:18,598
them and then kills them so you could please your palate. But I'm

627
00:38:18,614 --> 00:38:22,750
sorry. Go. Great. And we are all animals, and we are all earthlings,

628
00:38:22,790 --> 00:38:26,976
right? We all like this earth together. Right? Right. So, so my.

629
00:38:27,088 --> 00:38:30,568
And you mentioned the blog you were writing. Yeah, I wrote a

630
00:38:30,584 --> 00:38:34,040
little blog called living the Vegan Way. I was. I started dreaming

631
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,344
recipes. It's a little weird, but anyway, and then, and then,

632
00:38:37,432 --> 00:38:41,248
you know, then I started, you know, one of my friends

633
00:38:41,384 --> 00:38:44,400
was like, let's contact this vegan cafe, and.

634
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,992
And I'm gonna tell them how good your muffins are, because I started baking for

635
00:38:48,016 --> 00:38:51,488
friends and stuff like that. And, you know, so then I started doing some

636
00:38:51,504 --> 00:38:54,804
of that. I started doing some baking for restaurants and. And then.

637
00:38:54,852 --> 00:38:58,476
But, you know, the other activism I

638
00:38:58,508 --> 00:39:01,280
mentioned, I was in the salon for so many years,

639
00:39:01,580 --> 00:39:04,820
is I always. There's a joke

640
00:39:04,900 --> 00:39:08,132
about vegans, right? Like, how do you know someone's vegan? Don't worry, they'll tell you,

641
00:39:08,196 --> 00:39:11,900
you know? So I think it's important, though, for people, for I.

642
00:39:11,940 --> 00:39:15,880
This is why. Because you, you know, when you started talking about your seeds

643
00:39:16,700 --> 00:39:20,308
that were planted within you from these people, these, you know, people that,

644
00:39:20,364 --> 00:39:23,364
you know, from your son and this guy that worked for your dad and one

645
00:39:23,372 --> 00:39:26,878
of your employees, I think it's important because we need to get that word out,

646
00:39:26,934 --> 00:39:29,838
you know, like vegan, vegan meat. Like subliminal, right? So.

647
00:39:29,974 --> 00:39:33,890
And working in different salons, I started

648
00:39:34,590 --> 00:39:38,350
out just by telling people I was vegan. And of course, the question,

649
00:39:38,430 --> 00:39:41,182
first question, well, what do you eat for breakfast? That was, like, one of the

650
00:39:41,206 --> 00:39:44,910
first questions. And because I educated myself on food

651
00:39:44,990 --> 00:39:48,478
so much, I could tell people what I had for breakfast

652
00:39:48,534 --> 00:39:51,590
and tell people what I had and in detail, not just be like,

653
00:39:51,630 --> 00:39:54,054
I had a bowl of cereal with soy milk on it. That's not what I

654
00:39:54,062 --> 00:39:57,126
was eating for breakfast. You know, I was eating, like, elaborate stuff,

655
00:39:57,158 --> 00:40:00,302
like I would tempeh bacon, and I was having, you know, oatmeal with

656
00:40:00,326 --> 00:40:04,038
all these toppings and. And telling people what I was having, and this

657
00:40:04,054 --> 00:40:06,438
is what. And then I would just keep going like, this is what I have

658
00:40:06,454 --> 00:40:09,782
for lunch, and this is what I eat for dinner. And then,

659
00:40:09,926 --> 00:40:13,010
you know, I started telling people about different products,

660
00:40:13,750 --> 00:40:17,006
but I was always talking about it. And people, and a lot of. I don't

661
00:40:17,038 --> 00:40:19,934
know how I spent a lot of time in a salon, being working in a

662
00:40:19,942 --> 00:40:23,120
salon, but a lot of people are talking about food, right? They're talking

663
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,536
about, you know, people magazine pretty much, and then.

664
00:40:26,608 --> 00:40:30,072
And food, because it's like, you know, people don't get into deep conversations.

665
00:40:30,136 --> 00:40:33,360
It's like, it's a, you know, it's your relaxing place, whatever.

666
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,592
So it was a really good way to kind of, you know, do food activism

667
00:40:36,656 --> 00:40:39,872
for me with co workers. I would bring in, you know, vegan food,

668
00:40:39,976 --> 00:40:43,304
and, you know, it's a busy atmosphere, so sometimes someone would

669
00:40:43,312 --> 00:40:45,392
just be in the break room, might be like, here, try this. And, like,

670
00:40:45,416 --> 00:40:47,336
shove it in their face, you know, and they'd be like, oh, my God,

671
00:40:47,368 --> 00:40:51,024
this is so good. And I remember I brought in garden, you know, the fish,

672
00:40:51,072 --> 00:40:54,416
the fish fillets. And it's, you know, fake.

673
00:40:54,448 --> 00:40:58,096
It's vegan fish. And people were like, no way. You know, they're like,

674
00:40:58,128 --> 00:41:00,208
wait a minute, you don't eat fish? And I said, I know, and you're not

675
00:41:00,224 --> 00:41:03,848
eating fish either. But they thought, and that's one of the differences between you

676
00:41:03,864 --> 00:41:07,608
and I in that you have

677
00:41:07,664 --> 00:41:11,712
this incredible talent, cooking, baking, and you

678
00:41:11,776 --> 00:41:14,698
have such a great interest in it that if someone were. To add, I'll do

679
00:41:14,714 --> 00:41:17,586
a bonus episode. And they did ask how you can't. Cook repeatedly,

680
00:41:17,658 --> 00:41:21,426
right, at the salon, like, what do you eat? Well, let me tell you what

681
00:41:21,458 --> 00:41:24,722
I cook today for someone like me, who doesn't cook,

682
00:41:24,866 --> 00:41:28,810
which is one of the ironies being in the restaurant business, I just simply

683
00:41:28,850 --> 00:41:32,810
say, look, there's no shortage. And all you got to do is google it,

684
00:41:32,850 --> 00:41:36,242
you know, vegan food and vegan recipes. And if you

685
00:41:36,266 --> 00:41:39,532
have an interest in cooking for yourself, you can

686
00:41:39,556 --> 00:41:43,212
do it. And so that is a difference between. And then

687
00:41:43,236 --> 00:41:46,884
I think, and then I, you know, and then all my personal clients

688
00:41:46,932 --> 00:41:50,252
knew I was vegan. And depending on the spa or salon I was at

689
00:41:50,276 --> 00:41:54,044
at the time, some of the other customers or whatever knew.

690
00:41:54,132 --> 00:41:57,884
But so then I, then I decided to one

691
00:41:57,932 --> 00:42:02,036
day start talking to my customers about the

692
00:42:02,068 --> 00:42:05,072
products I was putting on their hands and feet.

693
00:42:05,196 --> 00:42:08,832
I was a nail technician and I started talking about

694
00:42:09,016 --> 00:42:12,488
vegan products. And a lot of them didn't understand that. Like, how could it be

695
00:42:12,504 --> 00:42:15,728
a vegan product? Because to them, vegan just meant me as a

696
00:42:15,744 --> 00:42:18,664
person being vegan. Like, how do you have vegan shoes?

697
00:42:18,832 --> 00:42:21,816
You know? So I started talking about that kind of a thing, you know,

698
00:42:21,848 --> 00:42:24,656
as I was. And let me tell you, these customers stayed with me. It wasn't

699
00:42:24,688 --> 00:42:27,720
like they were like, you know, I was very good at what I did,

700
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,238
but they, you know, they got a good service, but they got an education.

701
00:42:31,424 --> 00:42:34,458
But we really started talking about animal testing throughout.

702
00:42:34,594 --> 00:42:38,738
It was just this natural progression. Like, the products I'm putting on you

703
00:42:38,914 --> 00:42:43,002
do not contain animal byproducts. We talked about that. They were grossed

704
00:42:43,026 --> 00:42:45,946
out by that, right? I was like, okay, well, how about animal testing?

705
00:42:46,058 --> 00:42:49,586
Let's talk about what they're doing to animals for

706
00:42:49,618 --> 00:42:53,058
these products. How to look for that cruelty free bunny on the back

707
00:42:53,114 --> 00:42:56,634
or the cruelty free label. And I remember my customers

708
00:42:56,682 --> 00:42:59,808
coming in and saying, okay, you've really ruined me because I

709
00:42:59,824 --> 00:43:03,392
won't buy anything unless it has that cruelty free label on it. And I

710
00:43:03,416 --> 00:43:06,688
was like, but I'm not ruining you. You're getting really good products,

711
00:43:06,784 --> 00:43:10,424
right? You're getting ethical products. You're being an ethical consumer,

712
00:43:10,552 --> 00:43:13,664
you know, and building them up as, you know, they kind of were

713
00:43:13,712 --> 00:43:17,784
being negative about it. And then, you know, and then when, like, the impossible

714
00:43:17,912 --> 00:43:20,560
and beyond burgers came out, I said, you know what? You should try the impossible

715
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,050
burgers. Try the beyond burger, you know, and different things. And then I was giving

716
00:43:24,090 --> 00:43:27,390
them recipes. So I think that was, like, you know, my activism.

717
00:43:27,730 --> 00:43:31,178
And in that. And during those years, I was doing

718
00:43:31,274 --> 00:43:35,750
food activism. I was. I was teaching vegan cooking classes at libraries.

719
00:43:36,210 --> 00:43:39,370
I was kind of doing a lot of everything at once. I was

720
00:43:39,410 --> 00:43:42,266
protesting. We were lobbying, both of us,

721
00:43:42,338 --> 00:43:45,618
lobbying for the New York state Humane association. Yeah. So we were,

722
00:43:45,674 --> 00:43:49,062
you know, during all, you know, I can't tell you exactly when I was doing.

723
00:43:49,146 --> 00:43:51,854
But within the last 15 years, I was doing a lot of this.

724
00:43:51,982 --> 00:43:55,726
I've approached a library about doing a vegan cooking

725
00:43:55,758 --> 00:43:59,406
class. I think it was before Thanksgiving. Cause that's a really important time for

726
00:43:59,438 --> 00:44:03,526
me that's coming up. And they

727
00:44:03,558 --> 00:44:07,166
said, well, you know, how do you wanna do it? I had no cooking implements,

728
00:44:07,198 --> 00:44:10,918
either. Like, I had no. No. Nothing that created heat to cook on.

729
00:44:11,094 --> 00:44:12,974
And they said, how do you wanna do this? Do you want us to have

730
00:44:12,982 --> 00:44:16,110
a cap on people that can attend?

731
00:44:16,270 --> 00:44:19,388
I didn't know. I didn't know how this went. I never attended a library.

732
00:44:19,574 --> 00:44:23,792
I think I was on a panel once for plant based eating once, but they

733
00:44:23,816 --> 00:44:26,928
called me up the day before, and they said,

734
00:44:27,064 --> 00:44:30,632
do you want us to cap? Because we have, like, over 70 people, you know,

735
00:44:30,656 --> 00:44:33,888
that signed up. I'm like, no, it's fine. Then that day,

736
00:44:33,984 --> 00:44:37,536
as I was prepping food for samples, and I had some volunteers for sample

737
00:44:37,608 --> 00:44:40,960
handing people to hand out samples, they called and they said,

738
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,580
we had over 85 people,

739
00:44:45,570 --> 00:44:49,018
and they're still signing up. What do you want to do? I said,

740
00:44:49,114 --> 00:44:52,314
well, I said, I got to go. I have to make more food,

741
00:44:52,402 --> 00:44:55,794
because I want everyone to taste this food. So I made more food.

742
00:44:55,842 --> 00:44:59,730
And when I got there, they said, we have 100 chairs set

743
00:44:59,770 --> 00:45:03,482
up. And I was shocked by how many people were interested in this,

744
00:45:03,546 --> 00:45:07,234
interested about learning about, you know. And then I was like,

745
00:45:07,282 --> 00:45:10,916
okay, well, I have this captive audience, people that want to learn how to cook,

746
00:45:11,058 --> 00:45:15,368
you know, plant based food, vegan food. So I have to try to work in

747
00:45:15,544 --> 00:45:18,792
my talk, like, why we're doing this.

748
00:45:18,936 --> 00:45:21,864
So we had, like, brochures and things like that, and I had, like, a.

749
00:45:21,912 --> 00:45:24,768
I asked them to pull. I asked the library staff to pull, like, all the

750
00:45:24,784 --> 00:45:28,560
vegan cookbooks and success. And then you did other libraries.

751
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:33,000
Yeah. And I wrote a continuing ed curriculum

752
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,640
for vegan cooking. And then, you know,

753
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,880
and then. And then horse racing wrongs and. But you also started writing

754
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,580
the Tu blog I did with me. Right.

755
00:45:43,620 --> 00:45:46,644
So it was just, you know, this drive to.

756
00:45:46,812 --> 00:45:50,076
To just keep being a voice for animals in every way possible.

757
00:45:50,188 --> 00:45:53,396
And, you know, and now I do, you know, horse racing. And that's why this

758
00:45:53,428 --> 00:45:56,708
podcast was, like, just the next natural step for both of

759
00:45:56,724 --> 00:46:00,460
us, because it's a different medium. We've been on podcasts.

760
00:46:00,500 --> 00:46:04,356
You've been on, you know, television interviews and documentary

761
00:46:04,388 --> 00:46:07,916
interviews and podcasts. And. And also it gives us, on a personal

762
00:46:07,988 --> 00:46:11,986
level, an opportunity to talk about something more than just horse

763
00:46:12,018 --> 00:46:15,430
racing. Yeah. Because horse racing is every day,

764
00:46:15,770 --> 00:46:18,510
seven days a week. Right.

765
00:46:18,810 --> 00:46:22,630
It's nonstop and it's non stop.

766
00:46:23,530 --> 00:46:27,186
This offers us just an opportunity to

767
00:46:27,338 --> 00:46:30,666
address other issues, and so

768
00:46:30,698 --> 00:46:35,430
we're really excited about it. Yeah. And to bring other animals into

769
00:46:36,340 --> 00:46:39,708
other people's lives, I guess there's animals that we

770
00:46:39,764 --> 00:46:43,516
never encounter, you know, and I think we encounter animals every single

771
00:46:43,548 --> 00:46:46,620
day, and I think it's. We need to open our eyes to that. Like,

772
00:46:46,660 --> 00:46:50,564
all of us, there are still new animal issues we're learning about

773
00:46:50,692 --> 00:46:54,800
all the time that we just never knew. We, there's always something,

774
00:46:55,380 --> 00:46:58,892
but also changes in progress. So. And we'll be

775
00:46:58,916 --> 00:47:02,144
talking about those, like you mentioned at the outset,

776
00:47:02,292 --> 00:47:06,184
the Petco campaign. So these

777
00:47:06,232 --> 00:47:09,328
things, of course, it doesn't come fast

778
00:47:09,384 --> 00:47:13,264
enough for us, but it does happen,

779
00:47:13,352 --> 00:47:17,060
and we have made so much progress. And in all our protests,

780
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,504
when Ellen and I kind of took over as main organizers

781
00:47:21,592 --> 00:47:25,020
for Ringling brothers in Albany, New York, and then

782
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,936
we kind of formed this little group called Albany

783
00:47:28,968 --> 00:47:31,892
Animal Rights, and we were protesting fur and everything else,

784
00:47:32,036 --> 00:47:35,620
and, you know, any, any animal exploitation that was visiting, you know,

785
00:47:35,660 --> 00:47:38,836
like circuses and traveling acts. And,

786
00:47:38,948 --> 00:47:44,036
you know, we just, we, we drew

787
00:47:44,068 --> 00:47:48,140
people in that weren't animal rights activists, that weren't vegan,

788
00:47:48,220 --> 00:47:51,668
that weren't, you know, and they're vegan now. And I think that's so important because

789
00:47:51,804 --> 00:47:55,396
they were just, like, even with a horse racing protest. Like, people saw

790
00:47:55,508 --> 00:47:59,660
me on the news maybe talking about the protest, and they joined

791
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,912
and we just welcomed them. Yeah. And we've had many people who are horse people,

792
00:48:03,976 --> 00:48:07,464
quote unquote. Yeah, that's. That's their favorite animal.

793
00:48:07,512 --> 00:48:10,888
And maybe they had horses when they were younger. So they're.

794
00:48:10,984 --> 00:48:13,568
They're against horse racing for that reason.

795
00:48:13,744 --> 00:48:16,976
But again, because our messaging is very

796
00:48:17,088 --> 00:48:21,120
consistent. And how can you abolitionist right message

797
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:25,158
fundamentally. And we do incorporate that animal,

798
00:48:25,214 --> 00:48:28,566
that broader animal rights. Yeah. And how could you're

799
00:48:28,598 --> 00:48:32,210
being exposed to the plight of an animal that's being

800
00:48:32,630 --> 00:48:35,998
horribly abused. Right. So say a horse used for

801
00:48:36,014 --> 00:48:39,462
a raisin. And then we had one woman.

802
00:48:39,526 --> 00:48:42,526
The story sticks out, but there's been so many.

803
00:48:42,678 --> 00:48:46,374
But she went out to eat after and she got a chicken sandwich and

804
00:48:46,422 --> 00:48:49,822
her brain was like, what am I doing? Right.

805
00:48:49,966 --> 00:48:53,142
You know, because I was just standing up for an animal. Right. You know,

806
00:48:53,206 --> 00:48:56,806
and I think that, you know, as we move on here, we want

807
00:48:56,838 --> 00:49:00,590
people to see all the animals that you see in the world and the animals

808
00:49:00,630 --> 00:49:03,878
that we call family, you know, our pets, our companion animals,

809
00:49:04,054 --> 00:49:07,582
and to have make that connection, too. Right. Because maybe you're not

810
00:49:07,606 --> 00:49:11,142
advocating for, you know, your dog because that's

811
00:49:11,166 --> 00:49:14,662
your dog and you love your dog and your dog's like your child, but you're

812
00:49:14,686 --> 00:49:18,280
not really advocating for that dog. But there's other dogs

813
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,968
just like that dog. By the way, one of the benefits of those,

814
00:49:22,024 --> 00:49:25,912
these so called single issue campaigns, which we will get into on another

815
00:49:25,976 --> 00:49:29,976
episode. Yeah, we have to have a full. Episode, but bringing people in who

816
00:49:30,048 --> 00:49:33,528
aren't otherwise interested in animal rights, just being

817
00:49:33,584 --> 00:49:37,500
around vegans, just being around people who

818
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,300
look at this as a philosophy, a way of life,

819
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:45,420
they've made change. And we, you know, we countless people that

820
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,384
we have known through our work with horse racing wrongs. Yeah.

821
00:49:49,552 --> 00:49:53,728
So this is going to wrap up, I think, our first episode.

822
00:49:53,784 --> 00:49:57,080
We hope you enjoyed it. We are so excited

823
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:01,208
to be here and had such a great time talking

824
00:50:01,344 --> 00:50:05,240
with each other and talking to you today. We want to hear from you.

825
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:09,080
So go on our website, it's in behalf of animals.org

826
00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:12,512
and you can leave a comment and contact. Give us a

827
00:50:12,536 --> 00:50:16,056
suggestion of what you'd like to hear about, of what guest you might

828
00:50:16,088 --> 00:50:19,856
like to have or an issue, an animal issue you would like to learn

829
00:50:19,888 --> 00:50:23,896
more about. And we have a blog also and on in behalfofanimals.org

830
00:50:23,928 --> 00:50:27,504
dot. You can also follow us on all of your favorite

831
00:50:27,552 --> 00:50:31,016
pet podcast platforms like Apple Podcasts,

832
00:50:31,048 --> 00:50:34,392
Spotify, YouTube. Wherever you are listening

833
00:50:34,416 --> 00:50:38,142
to this, please give us a follow. Please write us a review and

834
00:50:38,286 --> 00:50:41,990
stay tuned. Every other Friday we will have a new episode for

835
00:50:42,030 --> 00:50:45,534
you. So thank you so much for listening and be a

836
00:50:45,542 --> 00:50:48,670
voice for the animals every chance you get. Thank you.